Ben Wahh

Ben Wahh owns Deluxe Tattoo in Chicago. He is a father, a husband, a tattoo artist, a pool player, and someone who has tattooed in a lot of places. He also founded Ink Relief, a 501(c)(3) charity that provides cover-up tattoos at no charge for victims of human trafficking and for former gang members.

This is episode 11 of Flipside Frolic. It was recorded September 3, 2025, published September 15, 2025, and runs about 2 hours and 36 minutes.

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Transcript

This is the conversation, proofread from the auto captions. Clear errors in names and places were corrected. The conversation itself was not rewritten.

Hey there. Thanks for joining us at Flipside Frolic, where we learn to understand each other's perspectives by flipping the script and having some fun. Here we go. Welcome everybody to Flipside Frolic. I'm your host, Carl Kmiec. With us today we have uh Ben Wa uh worldrenown as far as I know uh tattoo artist and we have uh a bunch of different conversations we're going to go with through with him um with his art where he started um and all that sort of thing. So, um, welcome to our to our home studio. And if you want to just kind of start off with a little introduction about where you grew up, what the life was like, whatever, uh, living in Chicago or, uh, how the art came in, you know, into your life or whatever, and we'll go from there. Grew up in, uh, Beverly on the south side, the last of a few kids there, four.

So, um, you know, lucky enough to have, you know, older brother and sisters with good taste. So, you know, always music playing and books around the house and art. And I'm actually the only one in my family though that got into art. Um, and uh, my daughter does music and same thing with her. There's nobody in my family does music and she is extremely passionate about what she does and does great with it, better than I did with art when I was her age. Um, but it was kind of uh being the youngest left me a kind of a way where I could kind of do what I wanted to do because my parents were pretty burnt out by the time I was around. And they were there and they were there to help me, but I had a lot of freedom that I probably wouldn't have had if I was, you know, the second or third kid.

Um, but I I think um definitely, you know, cartoons, movies, but comic books were a huge one. And uh this local comic book store I happened to be in when I was 13 and I overheard the owner speaking to these kids that were working there. And uh he asked them what they were supposed to be getting getting paid because he was paying them. And one of them said something to the effect of like 450 an hour. And he was like, "450 an hour? I never agreed to that." and I just had the whatever to speak up and say,"I'll do it for 350 and he you're hired." And just like that, I was part of the insanity there. And um this guy and his family were so great to me and I still speak to Well, he's dead now unfortunately. Um rest in peace, Frank, but I still talk to his family all the time.

And um being in that environment around, you know, immersed in the comic book world was awesome. You know, it was being behind the counter 13, 14, being, you know, having all the adult stuff I could look at, all the more advanced thinking stuff definitely was able to broaden my horizons at a young age. Um, there was one magazine that was they're called Fanzines, and those are the ones that are made with like articles about comics or interviews. And this one was a guide on how to make your own fan. And so at 14 I saw this and I was like, "Wow, this is pretty cool. I'll try." And you could also list yours in there um for sale or trade. And trade would mean people would send you theirs and you'd send them yours.

And this recently came up because I was contacted a few days ago by a guy who was like, "Is this Ben Lewis that used to make the comic book troubleshooter?" And I'm like, "Who the hell is this guy and how'd he find me?" And um sure enough, he had one of the comics I made when I was 14. I am currently 52. So that's kind of weird. Um, I don't know how he tracked me down, but he did. And um, yeah, he's really into all these. I guess there's a whole thing right now re revival of interest in those fans from that era. And so I have tons of them. Was that the recent post where somebody with some I saw something about somebody came up or found something on eBay or something for seven bucks or whatever it was? Yeah. He found it on eBay. Somebody had already bought it and he was like, "Ah, the art looks really cool. I want I want one of these.

Do you still have any?" like no. But I had some other ones. I actually mailed them to him today. Um but that was like amazing because um from the comic book store, I would work at comic book conventions and get to, you know, meet the artists of all these comic books I was a fan of. Um talk to them, meet these other artists that were doing fanzines, meet them in person. and you know, we would trade through the mail, but then you get to meet them in person at these things and communicate with them. So, that was really cool. Um, I actually still communicate with a bunch of them thanks to Facebook. So, that's really cool. Awesome. No. Well, so I didn't really do the I didn't really do the comic book stuff.

Uh, sorry about little pooches barking up there, but uh um but uh it's amazing how those different little niches of of of young kids and what they're interested in or whatever, but obviously the art is is inspiring and and there's just so many different varieties. Um, but what So were you always into comic books or that was kind of like why you walked into the store because you were kind of already into it and then and then you just kind of jumped in and and Well, so then my focus was I want to be um comic book artist. Yeah. you know, I really didn't have any kind of uh anyone around me kind of pinpoint or help me with my art or help me, you know, because to be a comic artist, you really have to be very well trained.

I mean, not so much now with AI and everything and people doing things on iPads, but back then it was a extremely disciplined um you know, direction to go. And I had a friend who was doing like really great comic art, I thought, and I went with him to a convention and witnessed him speaking to these companies, you know, trying to get a job. And the things they were telling him made me not want to do comics. Um, they want you basically be an art robot. They want nobody to have any kind of character to them. Everything has to look very bland, fit the mold. You're not supposed to go off the rails.

There's a few select artists that have that ability to do that because their numbers that once they build a name enough for themselves almost like a sitcom or a comedian or anything else that once you have you get to the point where you could demand some stuff or have true creativ but the majority of them were not that and you know you're basically an art slave and when I saw that and witnessed what they were telling him I was like you know so then I was at a loss like what the heck am I going to do with myself and Um, I was, my family were all board of ed, you know, worked for the city and thought, "Oh, maybe I'll be an art teacher, you know, going to that." And then I was going to UIC and it was just, I went, I started at Moraine Valley, which is a really good school.

Um, the teachers were great, you know, everyone would stay late if they needed to and talk to you and help you and everything about that school was great. Then I went to UIC and that's when it was like because it was lecture halls, go back to your classroom. Um, you know, usually a student from a foreign country is your teacher assistant that doesn't speak English and would just basically give you answers. You know, it it was just terrible. And I understand now as an adult, you know, you jump through their hoops, you get your piece of paper, then people jump through your hoops. That's the way it goes. But young uh 19, 20-year-old Ben was like, "This is effing bullshit." And um the final straw was at a class in anthropology of Japan and China. And it was two papers that were due.

Um, one was the first half of your grade, the other was second. And the first was on uh, China. And I had, you know, you read what you're supposed to read for class, you do the research, he tells you, he tells you all this stuff, you write this paper. Fine. Well, I met someone that weekend who just got back from living in China for five years. And it was at a party, a friend was having like a welcome home party with this guy, and this came up. And he goes, "Well, get your paper. I want to read it." So, I get it. And he's just laugh. He's like, "This is illegal. That's never been legal. I don't know what the hell the guy's talking about here." Like, he's just going to this paper telling me everything we're getting taught is outdated and wrong. And this guy's been living there for 5 years, you know?

So, I went to class on Monday and after class tried to talk to my teacher about it, who was an older uh guy. And uh when I tried to speak to him after class, he just loaded on me. He was like, I I wrote for Encyclopedia Britannica in the 70s and fine. So, I turned the paper in. F. Nothing underlined, nothing circled, just F, you know, because I didn't speak to him like that. Yeah. And uh you know, I spoke to the uh people in the offices where I got put in touch with the chancellor and he basically told me like, "Yeah, these guys do their tenure. We can't tell them what to teach." So then I was like, "Well, I'm going to out of here then because that's bullshit." And um got my money back from my classes and left. And then I was a drift, you know, like what am I going to do?

and um a friend who was uh the one who was trying to get the job at Comp World, this guy Nick Wiggins, he was he expressed interest in helping me get my foot in the door of tattooing because he was tattooing and um he had I had actually turned it down. But then now I was in this position, I reproached him like, you know what, let's give it a try. And um yeah, it was it was crazy because you know you have a lot of preconceived notions about things but then once you get involved with them you see more than you know you thought and you know it was not easy to get my foot in the door or do anything I wanted to do but you know if you persevere and you meet the right people you know so like what what were some of the misconceptions or some of the preconceived ideas that you had when you were you were talking about going into the tattoo world.

Yeah. And obviously there's some characters involved, right? So if you're not like into that sort of art or whatever. Well, you know, tattooing then was extremely different than it is now. I mean, like I think 70 80% of the people tattooing now would not have made it a week tattooing then. It was it was Yeah, you dealt with some characters. But um I think the biggest one is uh understanding that it's not about you. understanding that, you know, you might go into something like this like, "Oh, I want to do this. I want to do that." Great. Guess what? You're not tattooing you. You're tattooing them. And for for a long for the rest of their life in a um you know, you're not the one that's been wearing this rose on your chest. You're not the one who's going to be wearing this um bar boy or armband, but they are.

And like you said, it's for the rest of their life. So shut the [censored] up and do the best job you can to make this person as happy as you can and you know within your abilities. And um that's a big thing that was like really um eye opening and kind of relieving in a way because now the pressure is no longer on you to evolve and create as much as it is to listen and you know deliver what these people want. And um as an artist, a really amazing part of tattooing also is that you know what you like. You know what artists are you like and all that, but you don't know what you don't know. And people come in all the time with art and you're just blown away by you're like, "What is this?" You know, and so it's like this constant exposure to new ideas, new artists, you know?

So, like I said, you know, you go into it with the one concept that you're gonna be doing what you want to do and then you flip that on its back and now it's like, you know, your your service to the world gets, you know, reciprocated in such a way that you get exposed to a lot of amazing stuff. Also, a lot of, you know, [censored] and, you know, drama, you know, people's traumas and dramas, but um, you know, it's all part of the whole thing. Yeah, it's part of the culture for sure. I I mean we were talking a little bit before cuz as you walked in the the book The War of Art was was here on the desk and uh it is incredible how we were talking a little bit about just art and resistance and some of those points that come in that in that book.

Uh but uh yeah, I could see how and in some of that, you know, talking about summoning the muse even and and just trying to find that creative voice inside of us that goes through us and then of so many different um artistic people, a really good book, one of the best I ever read is this book um Dead Saints Chronicles. And it's by this guy John Allen West, is that his name? But basically he was a philosopher um Christian type guy and the book does have a little Christian leaning which I'm not about but whatever it's fine um who got diagnosed with a chronic brain tumor and was going to die. And so you started this path of researching um near-death experiences and people that um die on the operating table or whatever and see their body, you know, they float out of their body and see it on the on the, you know, slab, whatever it might be.

Um amazing thing is that and there's uh websites are nothing but testimonials from these people and it doesn't matter their age, it doesn't matter their background, it doesn't none of that matters. They all have the almost identical experience, but some of them even have more visions than that. And to speak to what you're saying, one person's vision was seeing the souls of artists from the past guiding the hands of artists in the present, which is a pretty powerful image if you think of it, you know, and um like you said about channeling the muse, you know, it's kind of another way to look at that like kind of this like Yeah. Where is this coming from? Exactly.

And kind of like, you know, if you're chosen or whatever by these spirits to be the one to pass it through you to the world, you know, and and some of what I got out of there is that, you know, be because we were talking a little bit about resistance and in some of the earlier podcast episodes, I had glitches that, you know, um are almost designed by the powers that be just to frustrate you to see if you're serious about doing this thing. Test. Yeah. Yeah. And so it it's but you know what and and that's the dividing line in the people the people that are going to you know say this is way too much and go back to doing back star at their phone all day and do whatever. The people that are going to persist and say break out of the cubicle.

I'm going to climb this mountain, you know, and I'm going to climb the next one and I'm going to climb the next one. Yeah, that's interesting. This this book is uh a little bit heavier. Mhm. But uh William James, the varieties of the religious experiences. So, so it's very similar to that, but that was from like the 1800s. And that book is a series of like 22 lectures that he did at the University of Cambridge or something where he categorized all these spiritual experiences that were known at that time from around the world. Yeah, it's nothing new. Whether psychedelics or any medications were involved or whether they were, you know, into drugs or alcohol or whether it was this or that, you know, accidents or spontaneous or so all these different things.

And I it's been a long time since since I read it, but it it's and it was a tough read because I'm not that smart. You know, there was like maybe two or three words per paragraph that I should probably look up if I was to do it cuz you know, but at the end of the day, it kind of came down to it really doesn't matter um what other people think or whether it they think it was real or not. If you experienced something and it helped you to change your life for the better, well then who cares, man? Just roll with it because somehow it inspired you to move in a different direction or do a different thing or not act a certain way or whatever the case may be. And I've seemed to experience that quite a few times in my life over the years.

And and uh but just like you said, where the magic comes from, where this whether there's an ether of all the all the knowledge in the universe is in this wireless internet that we could tap into. Maybe whether it's a mentor or somebody chosen as part of their penance to help somebody else in this world after they passed on or whatnot for a certain amount of time. I mean, you're you're a father and so am I. And you know, kids kind of are who they're going to be. You could try to push that triangle and that square, you know, that circular hole, whatever the [censored] you're going to try to push that thing all you want. It's not going to go in there. They're going to be who they're going to be.

And it's our job to kind of, you know, drive the taxi, you know, get them where they want to go and try to get them there as safely and the best way we can to our to our ability. But like I said, you know, my daughter gay into music. Like where the hell did that come from? You know what I mean? Like we play we have music on all the time in the house, but to have the passion to actually dedicate to focus and dedicate on specific things and put that energy there and not quit. You know, like me with art, nobody in my family did art. I had nobody around me to turn to or ask if this is right. You know what I mean? And so I had to kind of persist and um you know a big thing I tell people is learning how to learn.

And I had to figure that out when it came time to open a business because I had to navigate one of the biggest puzzles in the world and that's the city of Chicago uh legal system. Like the zoning stuff was you know there's what's on paper and then what actually happens. And having to navigate that process with a volatile alderman and you know inept lawyers was at 20 you know 3 years old when I opened my business was was a challenge but um wow I I can't even imagine that in a sense because you could you could have finished that degree in business startup as a specialty and it still would have done nothing for you when dealing with with local politics and and ordinances in Chicago. So that that has to be a major story just in itself. The main takeaway I learned at that point in my life was learning how to learn.

And what that means is you you got to get out of the, you know, what you think the world is. And you got to learn to shut up and just take in, you know, and whatever the world's trying to show you at that moment or teach you, you have to like not resist it. You just have to learn from it and move with it. And um you know, you could say, "Well, page 24 subsection 22 says this. Who cares?" You know, these guys are going to do what the hell they want to do. So, you need to learn what they want to do and why they want to do it and learn how to flow with that to get or try to get ahead of the curve a little bit and be a little proactive in the direction that you think they want to go or something. Yeah. But you have to basically you have to learn on the fly. Yeah.

And um this leads to what we were talking earlier, which is you were talking about you have conversations on here with people that may or may not agree with you and whatever and you don't know how they come to these. So one of the rabbit holes been going down lately is this guy Walter Lippmann. He was a political writer in the early 1920s and um this is kind of after World War I and he was a Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist and went on to guide and help politicians including presidents and his main thing in his first book was about basically human thinking and human thinking operates like this. You get your set ideas on the way things are now. That is what you're basing your reality on. Anything that doesn't agree with that, 99% of humans are not going to entertain because Santa's goddamn real. Shut the [censored] up.

You know, so based on that, if you could influence people and program them the way you want them to think, nothing will derail that. Nothing. You know, and it's pretty crazy because you can give people objective information that is like 1 plus 1 equals two objective and they won't want to hear it. Yeah. If it doesn't agree with what their core beliefs are. And they knew that. And back then even, you know, there's a quote. I'm going to read it right now because I was trying to prepare for this because I was reading about this guy this week and uh this is here it is. Lippmann said that mass man function as a bewildered herd. It must be governed by a specialized class whose interests reach beyond locality.

the elite class of intellectuals and experts would have be a machinery of knowledge to circumvent the primary defect of democracy, the impossible ideal of the omnicmpetent citizen. So, you know, he was preaching to these guys, listen, you can tell them it's a democracy and they can believe that, but we're going to run this [censored] Well, that there's a a friend of mine that was a political science is I believe still a political science professor at a universal university around here and uh asked him to be on the podcast but he's you know pretty set in his way so I won't call him out. Yeah. Um but but uh he gave me a book to read, Democracy Now, which talks a lot about those gatekeepers.

That part of the process was the the the idea of keeping certain people out of the process for the sake of democracy, which is sounds like a conflict of interest in some ways, but in their mind, they're protecting themselves from a certain characteristic type that may want to be a king or may want to, you know, take over. He's saying that as a justification for not being democratic, for sure. And then some some people on the left or on the right or whatever, but a lot of some people on the right that point out that this is a constitutional republic. It's not really a democracy. And then it's kind of funny because then you when you sit down and talk brass tax with people, populism is not the answer either. So what exactly? Everybody throws these isms around.

Socialism, communism, fascism, and I don't know how many people can actually define what they're actually talking about. So, so that's why in a sense I wanted a a political science professor to come in here just to let's let's talk about some of these definitions and what they actually are and what people's preconceived ideas are of what these things are because I don't think most people really understand. They're just throwing these slurs out there like as just assuming it's a bad thing just to degrade somebody or take away their credibility when when at the end of the day what's really happening? And and so it's funny because this conversation just came up um prior to the start of the podcast because I was just given the idea of what the premise of flip side folk is which you guys all heard.

Um and here it is um episode 10 or 11 and the premise of flipping sides and debating the other position hasn't really even happened. So I don't know if I have to push it harder to happen if it happens. But the the reality is is that when you're sitting across the room from another human being and you can you're not texting or you're not behind some beer balls on a keyboard and and and and just trying to, you know, tear people apart or troll on the internet, which sometimes could be fun. Just poke the bear a little bit and watch the fight, you know, and and sometimes it's it's just amazing that, you know, those sorts of conversations are not helpful. And and if you think you're going to change somebody's mind in that atmosphere when even text messaging is is so difficult to to have even an emoji or two might help.

It's better to have some emojis because people don't who's this guy talking to like was he joking? If I'm talking to you face to face and I let a little snicker out, you know I'm kidding. So all the all the different social cues of having a conversation in real life with people are so much different and and it seems that from all these from the past episodes so far that most of we're 99% on the same side of almost every issue we common sense prevails. Division is a business and they that's what they want. Yes. Because that makes us easier to control. Correct. People could blame religion they could blame politics. They can blame whatever, but at the end of the day, it's really about fighting tribalism, fighting over that 2% that we disagree on.

So, it's almost like I can say something simple like, "Should there be no religion in school or should you teach all religions in school?" Mhm. Because it's kind of interesting that I can have a four, five-year-old come up to me and say, "Dad, why is it that, you know, these religions all seem to be t teaching the same thing and yet we're going to war over that small percentage of things that they disagree on? Was Jesus a real man? Was he a prophet? Was he this? Is that even what you're going to war over?" You know, that might be a the subtext go to war over, but it's not the real reason. Well, that's that's there's a lot of truth in that, obviously.

And I think that's what the main thing I try to convey let's say to my kids or whoever I talk about is um you know if you look into the real reasons behind a lot of conflicts or the real reasons of why things are they're not what they are on the face of things and um like this guy Walter Lippmann is saying you know when you want to control a population you know you want to give them the fairy tale and you want them to believe in that fairy tale so hard that nothing can derail their belief in that fairy tale. Um, so when you come to find out it's all about greed or resource wars, which it always is, um, they're never going to be honest about that, right? Never. It'll always be for, you know, we're deposing that bad guy, you know, we're helping those people. Yeah. You're helping them out of their resources for the sake of freedom.

Yeah, that's that's correct [censored] Well, and but I think that's important to um you know, make like for me to make my children or my you know, people in my surroundings aware of because you can make better decisions and conclusions off of truths than you can off of propaganda and, you know, exaggerations and lies, manipulation, etc. So, and by all means, if people want to live in I have lots of friends that think I'm nuts, that don't respect, you know, the way I see things, and that's fine. That's their world. Please live your life. That it's what you get up in the morning and that's what makes your day go by. Great. But it doesn't mean I'll ever relent. It doesn't mean I'm going to let them off the hook. But, you know, at the same time, I'm going to have respectable conversations with them.

I'm not gonna say you're a [censored] idiot. Yeah. Yeah. Start the name calling and all that. Doesn't do it good. Nope. You know, never does. Um but you know, it's funny because I have somebody like, let's say on Facebook or something, you know, you're an idiot, blah blah, but they're still around. They're still chiming in every now and then. It's like, why are you still paying attention if you think I'm an idiot, you know? Yeah. No, I mean sometimes, you know, the anger is clickbait and they keep coming back for more and the algorithms just because you're interacting you're interacting with those posts. So now you're going to come up with my feed more. So even just from me sending you a message, it's like I'm seeing more of your your posts in my feed and and that's kind of how the algorithm works.

We're going to pause for one quick second. I know we still have audio and we're recording, but I'm getting a little flashing thing that I that's happened before. So let me see what's going on here. One sec. Sure. All right, we're back. Sorry about that, folks. Um All right. Well, got a little sidetracked there on our little technos. Um but uh yeah, we were just talking about some of the political um you know, tribalism. It's funny how like you could turn uh you could turn things around too where the tribalism like on sports teams especially you see that that's the most you know the most obvious one where you know are we're winning or they suck. Yeah. If it's negative it's it's against you know it's against their beliefs then then they separate themselves from that.

But when they're winning, hey, we are winning as if they're part of the team or something which just But you know, manipulation extends anywhere. It can extend into corporate stuff. It can extend to materialism. You know, whatever the the powers that be, whether that be uh monetary power or political power or, you know, family power, you know, you know, manipulating your own family through lies, lies and manipulation. Yeah. They don't they know no boundaries. Yeah. And there's obviously, you know, the the corporations and the advertisers and everybody else, they spend quite a bit of money on and psychological tests and trying to figure out what works and how it works and all that sort of stuff. There's a great um series that came out from the BBC in 2001 called Century of the Self. And you can see it on YouTube.

It was a four fourpart series, 1 hour per episode, but it talks all about how America and its youth when we first started were a country of immigrants that didn't speak the same language, didn't get along, didn't like each other. And we actually employed um Sigman Freud to come and figure it out for us. and he uses uh him and his nephew Edward Bernay were the first to bring that level of manipulation into a mass scale to turn Americans into Americans. And this documentary kind of chronicles how that was brought to being but not only into societal problems but how that was later brought into um sales and business and Bernay went on to be extremely successful um advertising person because he brought these techniques into that world but it's a great series um Century of the Self.

It's it's got a couple LS in it but it's worth watching if you want to know the history of that. Yeah, that sounds interesting.

There's there's another one even just uh along some of the same lines was I don't know if it was mind games or mind tricks or something, but it would show even just some of the visual aspects of how how the brain can be tricked with shadows and different things to where they would show, you know, some of those, you know, some of those uh kind of online games and different videos you'll see where it was like you you you'd see the girl and then you'd see this and then you'd count something and then you'd see this and then they'd ask you did you see the gorilla run across the screen and you just didn't see it because you're, you know, they got you distracted on certain things and you could you could only hold two, you know, one or two things at a time.

Um, so those some of those are interested in just different colors and different shades and different how how you can optical illusions and all that sort of stuff. So even on the bringing it back to the art in a sense with getting that depth, getting that shadow, getting that color and really being able to pull that out is is something that the eye sees in and in a different dimension or whatever. Mhm. Um but neurological and linguistic programming and some of these other sort of advanced marketing tactics and like again these corporations are spending top dollar to try to figure out how to get you to do what they want you to do, you know? So, as long as you're aware of that, the boundaries go way beyond that. Yeah. No doubt. Awesome. So, back to the art, I guess. I mean, I do have some pictures.

So, so now you're you just got out of the uh comic book business and and you're think you're you got into the tattooing world uh and and and you were learning how to get started in a business in Chicago. Um, and obviously more than how many how many because now you have what you have 10 12 artists. How many artists you have working for you? Something like that. Yeah, some 10 12 different people come and go sometimes. So I've had people leave and come back three times, you know. So it's interesting artist guest appearance if somebody's looking for that their work or whatever. Yeah.

But artists are definitely uh I'm a unique person in the way that I you know think in a business manner and I'm an artist but most artists are you know artists they're not thinking in a business manner you know you you'd see that in partnerships a lot of times too where there's the creative and then there's the analytic so one guy would be doing the books and the other guy is having the vision. Yeah. And and usually those two relationships work well together as opposed to having two artists together. Yeah. that that could be kind of chaotic. So, yes. Um, personalities. Yeah. All the different people. Yes. But, you know, that's a really good thing, like I said before about customers, bringing new ideas in. Same with artists, you know, and um the first time I had somebody leave who was, you know, really skilled, awesome artist.

It really sucked. And I was very like, damn, that's terrible. You know, what am I going to do? How am I going to replace this guy? And I will tell you this, you can make a list of all the qualities you want in a person to walk in that door to have and somebody will walk in with none of those qualities, but they'll be awesome, you know. Yeah. So again, you know, the universe will come through with like just giving you some amazing stuff. Yeah. Our expectations are, you know, that's like the the the uh Gar Brook song. Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers cuz my way a lot of times where I think this is the way it's got to be and then it doesn't work out that way but it works out better than it ever would have if it was.

So that's kind of part of trusting the powers of the universe or trusting the muse or trusting trusting the vision or just doing the next right thing and expect you know and having a little faith that what's supposed to happen will and kind of like you you were even mentioning you that with even raising kids and stuff. So I have three. You have just the daughter two. And so personalities, you know, we could take uh we could we could do uh we could do uh early early childhood education. We could try to educate ourselves in all these different aspects of how to raise a child the right way or whatever. And at the end of the day, I you know, love and attention is the only thing that truly matters.

and and and the way that the different personality types really come out, whether they're the first born, the second born, you know, I I laugh about that cuz I in college I took an introduction to psychology class for a prerequisite and and then we're in this chapter and we're reading about families and then the middle child, Dan, my Dan was the middle child, my oldest brother was the first born and then I was the youngest and then we had a sister come 10 years later. Um, so that changed the dynamic, but being the be you're you're just, you know, you're the baby or you know, all this. And of course, the third born gets away with a little bit more than the first born does because parents are busy or That's me. I was the last. So, out of how many did you have? Uh, four. Four in yours. So, so that's similar.

Um and uh those sorts of things are pretty pretty comical that uh they're uh you know so so oh so the point was uh I was like where'd I go? Um but the uh the class is explaining the firstborn, the middle child, and then the the the the last born and the characteristics that they have a tendency to be. And I'm like, "Wow, they're nailing it." But then it was like in the dysfunctional family section, you know. So, so I'm like, how is this dysfunctional? That's just the way it was for me. And growing up in the 80 early 80s in grammar school or or or whatever, it was ju it's amazing just how much culture is changing and how many different things are changing because back then single parents were pretty rare in in my neighborhood um on the northwest side of Chicago. and by cis her own diversity we grew up and and went to Catholic school.

So just the fact that I had a mom and dad at home whether it's from a divorce or an accident or whatever the case may be why somebody else might not um seemed like that's just normal. So anything that's going on in my house is just the way life is. So of course you just accept that as normal until you learn different that maybe some things could have been better or different or whatever. Um so we try to do the best we can but again um trying to live vicariously through your kids or whatever is funny. Um, another thing though is the level that kids are being raised by out outside influence is now so much more pervasive where they're inspired by culture or YouTube or whatever it may be and algorithms feeding them certain things to look at and it's impossible for a parent to see every little inspire influence on them. Yeah. No doubt.

That's that's there. You know, in school you have even more of that. So, you know, obviously you want to try to communicate as much as you can with them, but ultimately, you know, you can only do what you can do. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Yeah. For sure. And and that and then even like you were mentioning the influence, you know, like I I do love music. I always have loved music. I minored in jazz performance in college and and so I I do believe that music is really phys and I think there's some science that backs it up that it it um physiologically changes the brain in some ways uh by by making different pathways and some critical thinking and different skills that could be um a benefit of just playing music or or learning music or whatever.

So I've provided that I like like you know you try to not spoil your kids but in the same token I I think the most important thing is if if they if they find something that seems to glow a little bit more of a passion from somewhere. Uh where does that come from? Again just like anything else we don't know what's drawing them to this activity. I tell people this about my daughter. You know they're always excited about her music and her you know ability. We had her in 22 different weekend and after school things until she found music. You know, every time it would be like, I want to do this. Okay, cool. Let's do urban dance. You know, four weeks, you know, three months of urban dance. I don't want to do it anymore. I want to play soccer now. Great. Let's play soccer.

So, you know, sometimes they find it quicker than other times, but you know, just giving them that, you know, you want to try this, let's try it. You want to try that? Let's try that. Yeah. So, so as a parent, I think that's exactly where I've even after reading books or this that and the other at the end of the day, our our job is just to provide opportunity for experiences. And then for some reason like then my my my kids are in scouts and and just getting some outdoor appreciation and and archery and leather work and you know, they do all these different activities at a lot of these different camps and merit badges. So they're getting influence in and the primary the primary um goal is just leadership building, right?

So so it's pretty it's pretty amazing to to just provide those different opportunities and then they say, "Oh, I like chess or I want to do this or I want to do that." And then you kind of provide that opportunity as best you can financially or whatever cuz like we got some guitars and we got a drum set. we, you know, every they get their little kicks or we had them in hockey for a while and I mean things you can't just go head first into everything they ever mention. Of course, see, my daughter is the same way. She's uh, you know, she's 12, but she, you know, she was doing some horseback riding lessons and she was doing gymnastics and she's doing fig figure skating and she's doing this and that.

And it's like, you know, you could toy around with some of them, but if if somebody gets that passion from somewhere, like for instance, pool was the same thing. My whole life, I also played played pool mostly in the bars, mostly as an excuse to get out. I never really had enough of that dedication and focus to just sit there and practice for five hours, you know, where some people just can't put the thing down for some reason, you know, and where does that come from? Where does that where do they draw that that passion for something enough to dedicate that time and energy? Cuz you know, it was funny with the pool thing. I had somebody tell me once before, it's like, you want to be a professional pool player and play tournaments in Vegas? It's not that hard. I Well, it's it's simple.

8 to 10 hours a day, 5 to 60 days a week, 10 to 15 months, you'll be there. I almost guarantee it. And but again, how do we draw in that passion to sit and practice and to do do the do the put in the work that's required to to excel in with if you have it, it's effortless cuz that's what you want to be at. That's where you want to be. But if you don't have it, you don't have it. Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize that. And you know, instead of trying, I said earlier about trying to force a triangle into a square hole. You know what I mean? It's don't you can't do that for sure. But if a kid wants to be uh, you know, play piano, they're going to sit at that piano and play it all the time. They can't walk by one without stopping and playing on it. Yeah. You know, my pool table um is in my garage.

It's a two-floor garage called carriage house where basically the second floor is a storage. It's an old building. And I mean, I'll be going to work and I'll run upstairs and hit some balls before I leave. You know what I mean? I can't not do it. Um whereas, you know, my wife will just walk around, get her car, and leave. Yeah. you know, but to me it's like, oh, I got to go to the store. I got to go here. I got to go to Costco, but I have time to run a couple tables, you know, and get up there and hit some balls. Well, that's that's awesome. And and obviously it's, you know, you know, it's almost like I I kind of got golf fever, you know, I play I did the golf thing for a while for, you know, I have been for for for quite a few years.

And it's one of those things where sometimes we just get stubborn and think that we have to figure this out on our own. And and just like with pool or with anything else, it seems that, you know, the harder you get beat by somebody better only makes you better cuz you don't even understand what's possible sometimes. Like um funny funny quick story. I I Oh, go ahead. Go. No.

Well, well, just uh one time I went a shipmate from the Navy uh invited me down in Indianapolis for the 500 for the Indianapolis 500 one year and and I went down there and I'd always played pool for a beer around here or whatnot and then you go down you go we go down to this bar there and there's two pool tables, beautiful pool tables and there's not a quarter on any of the either of the pool tables and there's four foosball tables and the quarters are lined up on all four foosball tables and I was like this is weird. This was not a Chicago thing. There was only like what a select two or three bars that I could think of that were really hot on foosball in the Chicagoland area, but everybody played pool. Yeah. So, it was pretty weird. So, of course, I had to do something.

So, I'd play some games of foosballs and get my butt kicked by somebody and he'd pull out some keychain where he had he had some competition thing or something. But, you saw what was possible. You saw how they can control the ball. You saw shots that wow that how did that even work? And then that gives you something to go back and practice or try to figure out or whatever or to actually get a coach or to get somebody that understands the game some of the and to to to teach you some of the finer things that for some reason unless your brain really understands what you're supposed to be doing and and how that process works, it just it's it's not going to figure it out on its own just from trial and error sometimes. Some Yeah. But but you were saying like how you're not going to get that passion unless you get your ass kicked or learn.

We're in a new generation with YouTube and stuff where you could do so much homework and learn so much from watching streaming of matches of the top level pros that didn't exist. No. You know, 40 years ago. 40 years ago you had to go on the road. You had to play better people. You had to hope. They're not going to help you. I mean, cuz if they help you, that's not going to help them. Yeah. Um, the tournament I played on Sunday, you know, I try to tell people these guys are open books, man. They'll tell you anything. You know, it's a whole different world now. You know, no one's keeping secrets. No one's, you know, if you show up and you show you want to be there and you're there every week and you're trying, they're going to help you.

Um, they'll give you pointers, you know, but again, that goes back to what I said earlier is learning how to learn and learning how to turn off. And I can't tell you how many people I'll say, "Okay, this is the way you should have done that." Well, I do it this way. It's okay. Keep doing it that way even though it doesn't work for you. Keep trying. You know, the big muscle guy at the gym that's doing an exercise wrong, but he's been doing it like that for 10 years. You can't go tell him nothing. But if you see some older lady that you could tell has not been in the gym, and you could you could just be like, so I usually try to preface like I have a little experience in that. If you're interested in a suggestion, you know, I don't want to just go impose my will on other people. Um, but and and that usually is a lot more receptive.

But our ego is interesting too because like like another fun story was like I got into magic many years ago and and and I just thought it'd be so cool. It's so entertaining to it brings joy to people. It's like all these sorts of things and and so I go to this magic store store that just recently closed after co unfortunately Midwest Magic in in in uh in Franklin Park. But it's this huge place and they got all these decorations and skulls and all this cool stuff and counter after counter of different magic tricks and displays and I'm just like kind of walking around and I was I saw this video on this on coin magic. So I thought, "Oh, that'd be cool. I'll do some coin magic." So the video mentioned a half ounce silver coin, right? Or a 1 silver coin, which is basically just a half dollar or a dollar.

So, after seeing that video, I think if I walk in with the lingo and I kind of know the terms, then I'm going to be accepted into the click a little bit more, you know, and and wrong thinking in a sense because they know, you know, and so I kind of came in. I was like, "Yeah, do you have any uh half ounce silver coins?" And he's like, "You want coins, kid? Go to a coin shop. This is a magic shop." Yeah. you know, and he just kind of like shot me total like tail between the legs, walk of shame as I'm starting to browse the cabinets as I'm headed for the door. And then he was cool enough to come up and say, "Come here. What What are you looking for?" If you want to get some old coins to work out with, then obviously go to a magic shop or go to a coin shop and get the most beat up silver coins they have.

you know, and then then he was showing me some tricks. And so that taught me a lesson to like just like you were saying, well, how do you learn how to learn? And and so if you don't know something to walk into a place and say, "Hey, man, I'm new. I don't know nothing." Like where should I start? Yeah. Come with me, son. We'll show we'll show you the way. And and that's so much cooler, you know? But you know something to take that even further is um just learn to extend that to all parts of your life. Like if anybody is going to impart any wisdom on you on anything listen you know and it might not pertain to something at that moment in your life but you never know maybe later down the line you'll be like wow that's what they were talking about. You know what I mean? So I love it.

I mean I meet people all the time from all walks of life all ages all everything. and um always want to listen, always want to hear, and always want to take something away from it, you know. Yeah. I had a friend that he's like, you can't learn anything by talking. So, so sometimes listening and just learn, absorbing and you know, another one other aspect of that learning thing. It's funny, too, because sometimes you'll notice like I had a friend that was into dogs, was trying to get into dog training because he he wanted to have a well-trained dog. He didn't want to be one of those people with dogs that are are not disciplined or whatnot. So, he went to a place and they had free classes on Saturdays or suggested $10 donation or whatever it was. And and you'd get all these people that are again, they just want to help.

They just want to have you have a controlled dog and understand, but then you start excelling. then you could see that they'll be a little more standoffish because like, wow, he's actually getting good because you're putting the work in or you're working with the dog or you're practicing, you know, on the table. And then if if you notice that people might start pulling back a little bit cuz now you're going to beat them or whatnot. But you know, at the end of the day, it it is kind of amazing that if we just give value, if you had the attitude that I'll help you as much as I can, and I'll show you every trick cuz I'm still going to work harder and I'm still going to beat you, you know, and and I'm not going to try to I'm I'm not going to feel good about myself by beating you after holding back. Like, I'll give you anything.

I'm still going to beat you. That's so much of a better way to look at it and just try to help people, you know, get better. But I did, you know, you sometimes you will notice that people stand off or or or back off a little bit. But that's just that should just be a compliment to you that you're growing, you know, cuz it's you're they're scaring you. You're scaring them a little bit or whatnot. But there's like a you know, literally an infinite amount of people and an infinite amount of way that certain people get along. And so you might not meet that person you get along with initially or the next person, but you will. you know, you'll meet those people that, you know, are your people that you could communicate with and vibe with. You know what I mean?

Not everybody could walk in that, you know, pool room on a Sunday and play that tournament every week and everyone's going to want to hang out and be nice to, but then, you know, there will be those people that come in and they just vibe real well. But I love, you know, it's it's funny because my pool world and my art tattoo world are so separate. And pool makes, I think, the weirdest friendships and the weirdest connection. I can't explain it. I mean, I've seen people become friends through pool that would never in a million years play pool, you know, get along. Um, I play in a I was invited to play in a money league. It's on the south side, uh, through a friend that was on this team that needed help. And I live on the south side, so I did. and it's in some very different neighborhoods, let's say. And um it's fine.

You know, I'm I'm the only guy that looks like me there. I've never had anyone give me drama. I brought a friend of mine in who is a woman who's Chinese and she is about as out of place in some of these places as you could imagine. But it works, you know, whereas if you know she was just there to get a drink, that would be like what the hell is she doing here? What are you doing here? But um if you could back it up with some skills, then you're you're speaking the language through a mutual enjoyment of an art. So like basically if somebody came in off the street and witnessed the groups of people that are engaging in this, they'd be like, "What the hell is going on?" And you know, 63rd and Kenzie on a Tuesday night at 11 at night. How's this happening? But we don't think of it that way. We're all just get along playing pool, right?

you know, so it definitely makes, you know, some really But obviously somebody coming in there and just being an [censored] and starting a bunch of trouble is not going to end well for them if if they, you know, remarkably I've never had that happen. Yeah. But even if you walk into Chris's on a Sunday night to that nineball tournament, the variety of people that are there is always Yeah. diversity. It's diversity. That's the diversity everybody's looking for. But you know it's it's it's achieved through this mutual kind of passion to get to a certain place. You know we all want to be great at pool. We all want to you know play harder and be smarter and work harder and that unites all of us. Um yeah the common interests, you know, one that's Yeah. We all get along and want to kill each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We're all there to kill each other and that's what brings us together. You know, interesting. When I was a little younger, I I I got into road racing a little bit and and so when I was in the Navy, I ended up buying this race bike and out in West Summit Point, West Virginia, there's some road racing going on there. Then when I got back in the state or in in Chicago, you start looking into it and there's like six tracks within three or four hours around here. And there's this Great Lakes Road Racing Association back then to where you can actually participate in a series that only runs six races a year. So, you didn't have to be out there every weekend if you couldn't afford it, but you could still get some points and stuff.

And I I never got that good, but you might be the fast guy in the neighborhood and you go out on a track and and and you think you're going through this corner fast with your knee on the ground and then five bikes go by you like you're stopped, you know? So, you want to talk another situation of ego deflation. And the guys that are fastest aren't the craziest. They got the experience. They got their suspension dialed in. They got more laps under their belt, you know, and and so to me being a crazy guy, teenager riding on the street in Chicago, it is amazing I'm alive from for some of the stupid things that I did. But with with mom telling you to wear a helmet and, you know, all these different things, nothing worked more than getting out there with some professionals and learning the capabilities of the bike.

Then in an emergency situation, you understood what the bike can do and can't do. So you you know, so I think it was the safest thing for me was to learn to get comfortable with pro protective equipment on. So you're wearing a helmet, you're wearing some gloves, you know, you're not and then you realize yourself the dangers on the street with antifreeze and oil and all these different sand and different things that you might not experience on the track. And if you have a place to vent that and and go as fast as you think you could go safely or as safe as possible anyway, um it it tended to really just sink in my head that I don't have to be that crazy guy in the street. So I would usually the fastest guy in the group was usually the guy tailing in the back cuz I, you know, and then I had aftermarket brakes and stuff.

So if I go somebody tries to chase me into a corner and I grab a handful of brake, their brakes ain't going to work like mine and then they end up just rear ending me or something. Like I don't need any of that either. So a lot of times you just hang in the back just knowing that I'm faster than you guys, you know. Um, but in the same token, you'd still find that camaraderie like you're talking about from mutual interest. Like like one time I I went to a I think I went to a wearer race and they encouraged like amateurs to disconnect their back brake because they're pretty dangerous if you don't know how to use them on a track.

Um, and then so I had I had a broken uh I had a broken line on the rear caliper and but they wouldn't let me pass inspection because they're like if you go off in the dirt that's you need the the back brake to stop, you know. So one of the guys lived in the area. He ran home back to the shop and the next morning there was a brake line sitting on the the seat of my bike like, "Oh, don't worry about it. I got you." Like $12 part or at the time, whatever. But just that same kind of thing.

And then you'd see these guys rubbing elbows in these corners, bumping into each other as they're racing through these corners, like that guy's going to kick the snot out of that guy when he gets off the track and and they get off the track and the four of them are the best buddies out there, you know, but when they're on that track, man, they're they're competing hard. Yeah. You know, but the whole whether it's pool or motorcycles, whatever, it's all about getting out of your comfort zone and, you know, getting into the world. Yeah. Whatever your passion is. And you know, I think now more than ever, the danger of, you know, with um online gaming and stuff of people just like sit at home, you know, uh you see a lot of businesses, it used to be more like bars and stuff, they're suffering because now people don't really leave the house.

Yeah. You know, and um they're doing something, you know, they're interacting with people online or AI or where the hell they're interacting with. But um I think it's losing that, you know, and that's why I try to encourage my kids, you know, into doing these things that where they have to get out of the house and go interact with people. For sure. And and and that was another thing too that I found like this word altruistic like where there's people willing to help you and they really don't want anything in return. You know what I mean? They just they just want to help and they're they're good people.

So, like you could you could hang around a bad lot for a lot of years and just assume that the whole world's like that, but then once in a while you break out of that comfort zone even though it's chaotic, but you that's what you're comfortable with. And if you explore other areas that don't seem normal to you, it's amazing that there's a lot of good people out there. Like one of the things was uh there's a right camera club that's kind of a local camera club in the area and and great people. You just go with your that's my wife was into photography and she was going with her SLR camera and trying to figure out how to use it and and one of the professor one of the one of the members was the Photoshop professor at at Triton College here locally. So he would do a presentation on how he adjusts his photos for competitions.

and he's not holding back nothing. He's showing you these secrets and you're looking at this program like this is absolute magic. This is unbelievable. And and you have this resource, these resources are all available. But and like you said now that you could sit and just watch a YouTube video on just about any topic is is just changing the world for some some for the good, some for the bad. That's, you know, that's the the the normal break of all society that even with our kids or situations or you hear stories like Michael Jordan or somebody somebody tearing somebody down telling them you'll never be good at this sport and you would never tell somebody to do that to a child.

And yet somehow that was the motivation that that that fire that get pissed off or whatever it is that got that fire burning in them to work hard work harder and Well, that's a piece of the puzzle they like talking about. There's probably plenty other pieces you don't hear about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But setting goals, you know, the only people that achieve goals are the ones that make them, I guess. and and uh but yeah, so your life so we started off at starting off um we we you did shoot me some pictures if you wanted to kind of take a look at some stuff. Um obviously I know you can't say what your favorite piece is per se cuz everybody's No, but I love challenges. You know, I do a lot of cover up work.

There's a few I sent you where, you know, people have something they don't like anymore and that you're able to transform that into something better, you know. Um, I do a lot of work with cover-ups. That's the Well, the only thing I have is is that that was super old. Yeah. Um, but there was a a Indian ink needle and thread uh homemade jobber for Derek Rig signature on the Iron Maiden albums, the circle industry. That's awesome. A bunch of us got that done when we were crazy at whatever age. Yeah. And uh and I kind of like the way that it was a faded look and it wasn't real prominent colors because I didn't necessarily want something standing out when you're covering up something and it was like I didn't want laser removal or whatever. But well, that's the thing with a good cover up.

You know, basically the old one and the new one are coexist in the same space. So, it's important that you um you have to learn how to integrate the old design into the new design in such a way that it's makes sense that you wouldn't see it if it wasn't pointed out and yet it blends seamlessly so that it doesn't look like a cover up, right? You know, and that's like a puzzle, you know? I love the puzzles. I love the hard work. And so, I will sit there and look and look and look and try to like see it. Yeah. you know, and I'll make a couple stabs at it and I'll be like, "Nope." And I'll keep trying and then I'll I'll see it. I'll get it. Nice. And uh yeah, you just got to be patient. You know, you got to know when it's right. Oh, okay. So So like here here's a few examples if you wanted to point one out. So bottom right. Bottom right. Yep.

You know, you can see there halfway of what um he had and what I did with it. And there's a full uh view of the completed tattoo that I sent you the whole back. But there you can see that half and half. Yes. So bottom left that's the finished one. And to the right of it go right one and you could see the dimensions and you know so what I had to do there was it appears that the old one was black but once black settles in it becomes more of a dark gray almost. So now when you introduce a new black the new darkest dark you can kind of use the old one. You can click the old one. You kind of see the way you had on the right there. Um, you could see what I mean about how now you're turning that black that pre-existed before into a gray and introducing new black on top of that gray. So that way you could turn it more into a dimensional design.

Um, so that was a really successful cover up, being able to take something that nobody else thought they could cover and turn it into something like looking at the shapes of the skin that's available between the black areas and kind of envisioning what can go in that space and what would make sense creating dimension. I love it. Cool. Yeah. Um, there's another one. Yeah, there's that rose. You know, same thing. You know what I mean? of taking that black and kind of looking at that tattoo on the right and saying, "Okay, what am I going to do with these shapes? What makes sense in these open skin areas?" You know what I mean? So, you're not just putting white over black. You're using the black in the new in the shadows in the new design. So, it makes sense to be where it is. Yeah.

And even looking at the magic of oil painting or something where sometimes they're doing this base, which is part of what that is. It's just the base, the canvas, and splotching your your tones. But obviously with tattooing, your highlights can't be on top of the base. So, so, right. So, you have to use every little nook and cranny. With oil, you can take white and go over black and it's fine, but you can't do that with skin. So, obviously, that's Yeah, you if you do do that with skin, you have to do multiple multiple multiple layers, make it successful. Um, but I don't like to do I I'd rather, you know, take the time and kind of try to, you know, stare at those spaces, like I said, and think, you know, okay, what is this shape going to be? You know, what am I going to do with this shape? And then integrate that in the new design.

Very cool. Yeah. Um, don't know if I sent you coverups. The one, let me let me back there's one cover up. Let me let me back up one only because I think Okay, those are I didn't know if they went into this file. No. Okay. Yeah. So, the rest are other designs and tattoos people I've worked on. Yeah. There's a bunch of random stuff, you know, colors, you know, anybody that I've known that I' that have mentioned I mean you've your name is is I don't know how you know I'm not in that industry so I don't know the like ranking wise, but most people that I know that have good work definitely know you. Of course that that's changing so much now.

There's so many new people tattooing now that you know it's always like I I hear names that I'm like I have no idea who this person is and they'll be booked for a year and they're $500 an hour and they're on in or whatever at some shows. No, they'll just be an Instagram thing, you know, with with Instagram and um Tik Tok and all that. Now people become what's called Insta famous where they just like like okay you didn't exist a year ago and now you're hot [censored] Okay. Yeah. Right. which is f I mean any way to get exposure or whatever Oh no I'm not bagging on it. I'm just saying that that's you know where we're at now. Yeah. Um every time there's a new form of media tattoo is growing exponentially.

So like when I started it was the tattoo magazines and um the tattoo magazines and the exposure brought to tattooing brought in a whole new generation of tattoo artists that are like my age and come from an artistic background.

like all of us basically were artists and we saw what was being done back then and we're like hm I could do better than that you know or I think I could do better than that and that's what inspired a lot of us you know go for it um then you had the TV shows you know when the TV shows came out that blew tattooing up you know I mean that that exposed it to a whole new crowd made it more socially acceptable and then you had a whole new generation of tattoo artists that came in that crowd then you had an Instagram again another leap where you had more people being exposed to things and um every time there's Tik Tok every time there's a new one it's exposing it bringing more people into the fold so tattooing grows exponentially every time there's one of these you know I don't know how much more it can grow because right now it's pretty massive well I and and it's the same thing I mean as long as it's the same with music and everything else those same thing like we're not to close the loop on politics even is that there was those gatekeepers and even in the any kind of indust politics well yeah no% and I'm saying like even in the even in some of these industries there there was a certain click that you would need to be in and if you didn't go through if you didn't go through that specific those channels you might not ever be recognized or get the goofy award or know which award is kind of important or for for recognition or something like that.

But most artists, I mean, I think they're just looking to do their art and not too concerned over that. But, um, well, I mean, it depends if that's the way you make your living or just doing art for art's sake, you know. Yeah. And, um, a lot of times there's parameters, you know, I mean, there's there's things that are keys to success you have to follow in order to get from A to B. And you know, when you bring in new forms of media, new ways to circumvent that and get to where you want to go and people figure it out, they're all over it, you know, and then the old parameters are useless, you know. Um, a lot of that like look at streaming versus renting DVDs, you know. Um, that just destroyed a whole industry, you know. Well, we were talking a little bit about AI and that's pretty similar, too.

And I think that it's going to destroy so many industries. It's it's going to change a lot, but you know, so it's almost like the fear tactic kind of thing where robotics and an assembly line and it's going to kill all these manufacturing jobs. And it did. I mean, it sure did. But about industrialization back then and all the people that were, you know, speaking out against industrialization and what was going to result of it. Uh, what the hell is the name of this artist? Uh it's driving me nuts, but he was a big like this is not the right path for humanity to go down, you know. And uh someone would say he was right, you know. Um and with the AI thing that's going to put so many people out of work.

Uh last year we were at a wedding in in um Denver and we were in a car full of people that was being transported from A to B and this guy was talking I think to his grandmother and he's he worked at a law firm of some sort and he was explaining to her about you know um chatbt and all that stuff and how they use it and he's like yeah I used to have to work so hard on making all these legal forms for these you know things I'd have to do and now I go and chatt and I tell it what to make and it makes it and I give it some more suggestions and it makes it and I do in under an hour what would take me weeks to do before and I give it to my boss and he's like this looks great and you know that's I it's so much easier now and I'm just thinking to myself oh buddy how long you think until your boss realizes this and you're no longer working and now he's just doing it all through Chad GPT you know and there's going to be so many people who are going to be just necessary hopefully what you know what's supposed to happen will and and I think there's still going to be an avenue for people to to be the mediators of how that works in some ways.

So it it we did kind of go through a pretty big phase in this country about where everybody just it was fine that all that manufacturing was going overseas because you don't want your kid working on some assembly line and everybody wanted to be a consultant and everybody wanted to make $200,000 a year sitting in a desk and and not you know not doing manual labor or whatever or picking crops or whatever the case may be. But obviously those jobs have to get done and maybe robots can fill some of those jobs that people don't really do. Maybe that would open up some other avenues or maybe there needs to be uh some sort of basic social income if there's if there unemployment really becomes a massive problem and and maybe that would inspire people to follow some of their creative dreams instead of well, you know, just getting stuck.

problem though with um I see with a lot of it is they feel a need to they're not going whole hog on it yet where they still keep people around. Case in point um when you go to a store now and they have all the automatic scanners and they have the person who's kind of just there to be there as a human being to talk to. They're not doing anything. They're standing there waiting for you to be dumb at what you're doing so they can tell you what to do. But you used to have six cashiers. Now you have one person standing there who's being kept around. I even saw one where there's a hotel in Florida and there's basically an iPad there to check you in and it's somebody in India and then it just dispenses your car.

It dispenses your card, programs your card, tells you what room to go to, but it's some guy in a foreign country who's checking you in on an iPad. Well, so you know, you know, it it's down to the individual businesses how they want to operate and if people want to support that. Yeah. So like if I have a choice to go to a hotel that's cheaper but I have to deal with an iPad and some guy in India to tell me what I need or how to get what I want or go to the hotel I pay a little more and deal with actual humans you know. Yeah. So it's going to come down to people and what they want to do with their Yeah. There's Oh, this book cheap. Yeah. The high cost of discount culture is actually a pretty good read. Uh Ellen Ruple Shell.

Um and and and it opened my eyes a little bit because you know like you were you kind of mentioned earlier in some ways about uh wearing different hats, right? So so like like we might have our citizen hat and then we might have our union hat, our worker hat, and then we might have our investor hat and you might have your businessman hat and then you might have your artist hat. and and all those different heart hats usually change some of our perspectives on on how we would address a problem or or try to work out a solution or whatever the case may be, you know. And so back in the day when Walmart would have some not so nice business practices in small towns and move outside the border, they had this business.

It's allegedly they had some business a business model where they would move right outside of town and then um promise the world and then kind of reig on some of those deals because they weren't in that town or whatnot. And you could be like screw Walmart, I'm not shopping at Walmart and I'm a union guy and screw them and play that game. But the reality is is like you're really not affecting much of that problem. And sometimes, well, you know what, as owner of a business, you are. I mean, if you made the choice to buy that hammer at the local Ace Hardware over the Home Depot, believe me, you're making a you're making it a big help to that person for the local business. Yes. Yes. And, you know, I can't think like that.

I can't think like I'm not making a choice, you know, because my point was that me not shopping at Walmart is not making a big significant issue. And and then a lot of times if I was to really look at myself and put my investor hat on, am I invested in mutual funds or is my pension invested in funds that profit from Walmart's profits? Well, now now we're stuck in this colundrum here. Which do you prefer?

you know, and so like I did a lot of saltwater aquarium stuff um with fish tanks and I should keep a list when I talk to you of all the things you've done cuz it would be like well that it's partially because like you know fishing motorcycle in in the beginning in in in in the beginning I think it's part of whether people want to say oh you know uh attention deficit or whatever in school and you're kind of well I think it's more of a personality type. I think there's some people that are just like that. I've known people my whole life like this. Well, I used to joke about it. Yeah. But they're not There's nothing wrong with them. It's just there's a certain type of personality where it's like, "Yeah, I want to do this. Okay, now I want to do that." Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with it.

So, jack of all trades, master or none as it comes down to it. You know what I mean? I I I'm could be a decent pool player. I could be a decent this, you know, and and then I just never really found that passion to really dedicate so hard to something that I really became great or excelled at something. Yeah. three of them here. Uh well, well there's there's quite a bit, you know. No, I say you have three kids out there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's your passion. Yeah, that's obviously that works. And and and and you know, I did bowling for a while, you know. I would I would jump from thing to thing, you know, buy buy new shoes, buy a couple of balls, and then that would be my thing for a year, and then and then you kind of filter off onto something else.

But I think part of that is exploring the you know yourself and finding the things you like or whatever until you really kind of feel a calling or whatever. And even this podcast for instance is I mean the the main premise was it's never about making money or anything like that and and probably it'd be years before I do I'm sure anyway or whatnot. But just being authentic and and and connecting with individuals and human beings and having conversations with people cuz none of us can sit down and just put the phone to the side and just have a conversation is it's so difficult to do these days. So that's the thing with uh tattooing is people see you almost like a therapist sometimes where they just tell you everything. You got a lot of time.

We we all talk, you know, when we're eating lunch and stuff what our customers are up to and I hear some stories that are just crazy, you know, we all do and uh Yeah. Yeah. I can Well, I I think you know, people are people are missing that connection, right? And so you whether it's it's not so easy at the dental dentist office when you got stuff hanging out of your mouth or whatever. But it's funny that you people are striving for any opportunity to kind of have that connection because they're not getting it anywhere else, you know. And if you I also think it's um kind of a relief that they're not you're not part of their normal life. So they can speak more candidly with you than they can with people in their life. For sure. And so that's pretty, you know, doors open. Let's hear it, you know.

But there's there's some people that tattoo that wear earbuds. they don't even pay attention, you know, and I hate that. I I mean, I get it. Some people want to like ultra hyperfocus on what they're doing, but I also think it's like kind of part of the experience. Oh. Oh, as the artist, you're saying, not as the client. Well, both nowadays, but um client, that's fine, you know, but when the artist does it, I'm just trying to not focus on the paint. But when the artist does it, I think they're kind of, you know, screwing up the process a bit. But, you know, it works for them. Well, that's their thing. Yeah, that's a different thing. I would never do that. Yeah. I hate it. It seems like the connection is part of the process for sure. Yeah. But not even that, like, you know, this person might have concerns or whatever.

They're already intimidated and afraid to voice, you know, so if you're doing this, they're never going to voice them. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's Yeah. And the last thing you want is for them to not say something if it's not coming out exactly how they want it or something or any concern or anything. Yeah. And um when you do fix up or cover up tattoos, a lot of times they'll say, you know, yeah, I was wondering or I was thinking I didn't say this. Why would you say something? You know, this is your tattoo for life. So I always try to stress out with people, you know, like listen, if you have you want to move it, let's move it. You want to do this? Yeah, we'll make 27 edits. I don't care. Yeah, let's do it. Let's get you where you want to be. You know, and um hopefully people will take you to that.

Sometimes people don't even know what they want, though, you know, so it's hard, you know. You try to give them what they want and they don't even know what they want. Yeah. So, it's you got to learn how to maneuver there and but if and and then you're the expert in a sense that you know you can have your opinions but you also can kind of feel out where people are at and what you know is going to look cool at the end of the day that they'll be happy with in in a lot of in a lot of ways. So, it's almost like a a tradesman or an electrician or somebody comes over and it's like I don't need to give you every detail. You're supposed to be a professional. you know, there should be a three-way switch into this room and can lights over here. Tell me what you how would you do it if it was your house, you know, it's a give and take. Yeah. Yeah.

100%. So, that's that's definitely important. Yeah. Um Yeah. And then I think that with even with the AI um there's always going to be a desire for people to have this real experience, too. So, well, they have AI chatbots for that. Well, that yeah if they if they don't tell you to how to make a noose or whatever that there's some crazy stories out there but but some of that's part of that fear base you know it's the same when we when it's already happening I mean they're already being enabled you now yeah no and and I yeah who knows where that's going to lead but I think there's going to be good and there's going to be bad you know just like any other situation in history that you know we can't we can't freak out until there's really something to freak out about because well it's kind of useless to freak out.

Yeah, it's more I think it's better just get a good context to what's going on and keep it in, you know, the right context.

Even if an even if an artist is somewhat using AI to help write song lyrics or something or I don't know, but there's something about an acoustic setting in a bar and a passion of somebody that's performing and when you can hear that authenticity and as opposed to like some pop song that you know the algorithms just told you what chord changes work and what people like or there was some movie way back when where there was like a like a rap guy that had some software he wrote that analyzed music and took the best parts of all the most popular songs and helped him to write songs and he was writing hits or whatever and it was just one of those kind of moral dilemmas like okay is that is that how we're supposed to create art or whatever but I think I think you can see through it for some reason because there's a magic that happens with even live art whether it's a tattoo or a drawing or a painting and or a song being performed that just touches you in a different place.

That a Did you see this? Um it was on CBS News. It was a guy Rick Beto. He did a thing about this um program where they could basically say, "Create me a singer songwriter." I'll send you the video later. It's pretty crazy. So, it actually makes the picture of the girl and gives her a name. And then he says, "Make a song about walking away because this guy doesn't appreciate you." And it writes the lyrics and makes this song out of thin air. And she sounds great in 20 seconds. Yeah. Oh, but she sounds like a human. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. And it was literally created in 20 seconds. And my instant reaction was, I want that program. I want to say like, make me the Black Sabbath album between like, you know, Paranoid Volume 4, like make me whatever, you know, make me the last typo negative album that ever came out. You know what I mean?

And see what it came up with because what it did with this was crazy. Um, and you talk about like that human quality and stuff and it knows what to do. Like if you listen to this, it does not sound and it's getting better by the day. Oh, absolutely. And so, but what I think is going to happen is you're going to have these songs and this stuff kind of integrated into radio stations with real stuff or on soundtracks, let's say, to a point where you're not going to discern between what the human one was and what was the AI one. I mean, you think about the AI one, what it cost to make them that. Yeah. Nothing. It happened in seconds. You don't have to pay a producer. You don't have to pay an artist. You don't have to pay royalties. You just literally create this out in there in seconds. They could do this all day.

Well, and you could tweak them. You could say, "Well, why don't we do this to this, this, and you know, add that little touch into it." Have you played with the Gro one for off of X? No. So, so it's getting it's getting pretty crazy. It's getting pretty wild because it is doing images and stuff like let's see maybe maybe I could pull up uh just an example. So, so it's funny because it's like again either you roll with the times or you die, right? And and so sometimes new technology comes out and is the business going to use the square card reader or have more options to pay or all these things which provides a service for a customer at a fee, you know, or whatever the case may be. or so so sometimes you just have to learn how to to evolve in in this new marketplace, right?

And so even back in the day, like to get a to get a marketer, you could look at the Cracker Barrel logo and say somebody got paid to make that cheap logo, even though the old logo was pretty cool, you know, or or whatever the new drama is that they're they're putting out there, but you could pay a lot of money for some marketer to make it just a logo for you.

So even even the the Flipside Frolic logo that I did a sketch drawing and sent it to a guy on Fiverr on Fiverr if you ever Fiverr is like it started off as it was a website where you can do almost any little things for five bucks you know and now it's not five bucks anymore but 50 bucks or something to do a logo and then own the credits that they they draw they draw graphic design draw a logo for you or whatever you can make a few tweaks and say no can you change the color, can you do this? Um, as opposed to what might have been $250 or so, whatever for some for a marketer to do it for you or whatnot. Um, but let me see if I could the Gro thing. Well, I use the Gro, so I've never messed with it. I just don't I don't Oh, I have to Oh, let me close that because there's actually I think the last South Park was all about the chat GBT thing.

Oh, really? Yeah. Well, they're they're they're genius. I I can't you know how many year how many years that show's been going? Oh, yeah. I remember when the first one started. God, what? And and and it wrote like some comedians talk about it, too. Like where there's just something about there's something about being a cartoon that lets you push the envelope and get get away with it a little bit more than maybe you would get away with. Um, if you were just uh not a cartoon, well, like we spoke earlier about the comp garer have the numbers and show that they're, you know, worthy of it. You know, you can't just come out with some crazy cartoon that does whatever it wants. You have to earn it. And I think, you know, their initial success open the door to more success, open the door to more success.

You know, if it wasn't getting the ratings or anything, they wouldn't be around. But because it gets the ratings, people love it. It's allowed to. Yeah. So, so this la this label, this logo was done um and paid for through Fiverr and and so you could copyright it or or or whatever. And and I knew I wanted a yin-yang. I knew that I wanted red, white, and blue. I didn't want it to look too patriotic, but I didn't want it to. And and so the first thing that they did was just like some swipe copied thing off of uh off of uh um like off the internet.

So it somebody's like, "Oh, that kind of looks like the Fendy logo with cuz I wanted the F and the F and the Flipside Frolic." And then it it then I was like, "No, I then I kind of sent a sketch and I was like something like this." And then, you know, so it was completely designed by me through an artist that followed my instruction and I think turned out pretty well. But then I took that image and I downloaded it into Grock and and uh said use this image as a as a logo base. But I was considering doing another podcast where instead of more of an interview process, it was more me just ranting about whatever is going on in the world and just do it. So So I was like, how am I going to incorporate my rants if I wanted to do that? We'll see how people like that or whatever.

So then I was doing a toy on words for that and I came up with flip side flip outs or whatever. So that'll that'll be funny. That'll be me flipping out by myself and then um well that could be a side thing. Those would be little five minute videos or three minute ones. Or I was thinking like if I did like a a Friday night one, I could do a live stream and then I could play with the with having a live stream and interacting with the people in the chat or whatever you could do. Then maybe I would pull in an a Zoom interview with somebody that I can't afford to fly out or, you know, if I really want to try to interview somebody that's in uh um Perfect. That's good. Yeah. Somebody in uh what's it called? Out of state or or whatnot. Yeah. Cool. Um so I don't know if I could pull it up. I could pull it up on my phone just to show.

So, I ended up downloading that logo and then it really gave me within 10 seconds gave me a hundred options. Really? Yeah. I mean, and and so Oh, wow. You're not kidding. Jeez. So, I don't know if that would even show up, but yeah, you'd see it. So, then I I picked one and you could pick one and say, "Okay, can you change it?" AI did screw up that like the there was an extra letter in the word for some reason or, you know, something like that. But that's probably the one I'm going to use. Um, I have people send in art that's AI. And one guy sent in a Jesus had six fingers. Another lady sent in a fairy that had three arms. Yeah. Yeah. So, you got to be very conscientious of this.

And people I know said they've seen tattoos where they've made the design on AI, do the tattoo, and then people comment on they're like, "Dude, why does this guy have two left arms?" You know, like and artists, that's why I'm saying they're not really artists. They're just copying and they'll go ahead and tattoo it that way on somebody. Yeah. And now the whole internet sees it, you know, so that that's what's coming around the bend right now. Yeah. That's criminal. But that's happening and that that and that was like the main thing like the hand thing and all of that. So, but again, six months from now they'll have it worked out.

It's even crazier than but you know like AI like uh HR Gagger I'm a big fan of uh you got to meet him hang out which is pretty amazing but um you try to see like Chad GBT or whatever do imitations of HR Gaga not even close it can't even come in the ballpark. Yeah. Like I could you know easily pick it up. It's not it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's trying and there's some things it could replicate, but there are some things it just cannot touch. I think the the the main problem is is trying to find some way to digitally tag um your individual work because did I I tell you this one? So, I have a friend, he's an artist. Um he's done the cover of Time magazine, like the man of the year issue multiple times. He does Rolling Stone magazine. He does all kind of art. He's fantastic, great guy.

He does everything from Total Realism to mostly caricature work. And um he was contacted by a person who's just like some random person that was like, "Hey, I just want to let you know that I uploaded some photos of myself to chat GPT and said, "Make a character of me." It did, and it signed his name to it. Wow. He never brought this guy never brought up my friend ever. Just said make a caricature because it's just stripping it off the internet and if that signature happened to be in one of the pictures, it just incorporated it. Well, it saw that he's a popular character artist. There's there's hundreds of them. Thousands of them. But it took his signature and put it on the art and that's not good. No, that's what the guy makes his living doing. Yeah. And now the internet's stealing, you know, AI is stealing his name.

That's where like even if you were to use chap GPT or search engines or or language models to write your paper for you which it obviously is happening with so many people even some of these doctor doctorates that things are coming out with plagiarism and all kinds of stuff but if there was like if if if it was some way to digital tag and I'm not a software guy but if you created original content and and you uploaded it and and claimed it as your original content.

if it could at least tag it to where even if Chat GPT stripped the internet and pulled a section of it, if it can just automatically pull a bibliography where they would at least give credit to the contributors to that or to the to the five pieces of art that were some sort of were a model for the creation of this digital this AI image, then maybe there could be some form of giving back credit or some sort sort of monetary but the problem is there's no choice like you don't have the choice to opt out you know to say I don't want this thing using my stuff yeah well yeah you'd have to have some sort of but you don't yeah no he didn't have any choice right and you know um I know this guy who does uh the eye team on ABC News Jason Nolles and I put him in touch with him and they did a segment about it and this lawyer just basically said you're screwed you know what I mean like good luck you know he didn't come on and say yeah it's stole your your like likeness and your name and that's terrible.

Let's sue him. He said, "No, in this day and age, man, welcome to the game, you know, deal with it." Which is like the worst answer you can get. You know, you'd expect it to be like, "That's not right." And we But no, his answer was that's the game, dude. It's funny that I mean, whether you want to play it or not, you're involved. We talked a little beforehand setting up uh about my accident that some of the listeners have heard about, but uh um but that was the same kind of scenario. If I really wanted to pursue doing the next right thing with all aspects of that case, I would have needed a team of lawyers with six or eight lawyers for sure. And how many of them would work propono? Are you going to take 15 grand and and retain this attorney or whatever the case may be?

So, so of course nobody can afford to pursue these matters sometimes on these little things. But there was a few times that I said, "But it's not right." And they're like, "Welcome to Chicago." Well, in the universe, but kind of special. Yeah. So, it was like, you know, and then you then sometimes like some of those issues can turn into like a whole life mission if you let it like I'm going to call the Consumer Protection Agency and now now you're going to dedicate hours of just filing a complaint to just try to get it on record. So, maybe they can't do this to somebody else or whatever. and and and it and and unfortunately the outcomes are never all that successful.

But I think that's like where the um function of uh an honest media, you know, comes into play where that's that should be their prerogative is to help champion people that are wronged or doing things like this and that's no longer there. you know, when they when they have, you know, the city, they'll, you know, the powers that be will say to them, "Okay, you want to do that story, it's fine, but we're gonna cut you off in this, this, and that." And they don't want to get cut off in this, this, and that, then they're not going to stick their neck out for you. Yeah. And so, when they won't do it, you know, these the crooked system won't do it. It's terrible. And I see these cases and read these stories all the time. And I know people, you know, who have been wrong like you can't believe. And you know they can't get any justice. No. No.

That's that it.

And even with the networks and everything else, I God, it's just that's one of those things where when you talk about the tribalism, you really do notice how are people really that blind that they can't see some of this obvious wellness the pre-established, you know, manipulation of people where they implant, you know, this generational idea of these are the right people to back or these are the right people that are looking out for you and you'll see example after example how this is not happening and yet they won't move from their stance like I mean and and when they can't even see like I I understand that sometimes people are just there to read a script but like and they're supposed to be given objective news and if they're blatantly lying to you every day and it's like how many times do you have to be lied to to your face before you don't trust that person anymore You know, but you know the other thing that happens though is they have both sides of the coin.

They run it all. Um there that guy that made that documentary about a century of the self about the manipulation and the rise of Freud and his nephew Bernay. He also made another documentary about the parallel li rise of um it was Trump Putin and the guy that ran Syria, Assad. Assad's daddy's run Syria and then uh he died and his brother was supposed to take over who was but something happened to his brother and then he got power. But um not a lot of people talked about how Assad's dad kicked Reagan's ass. Like they destroyed America. America tried to get involved over there in the 80s and they got destroyed. All these countries, Iran, Iraq, Libya, they all united and they rebelled. You know, whatever America. But in this one documentary, there's a lot of news footage from back in the day of when that was all happening.

We don't talk about that stuff anymore because it's not good. But at the same time, that's when Putin came around started rising. And one of the things that he did was backed all of his opposition through channels. So they didn't know he was backing them. And that's what happens a lot now is uh case in point. The last time there was a government governor race here where Pritsker was running against um what was his name? Roner. Was it the No, it wasn't Roner. It was the guy the farmer from Oh, Weiss. No. No, it it was the guy from Southern Illinois. But who is this guy's number one backer? JB Pritsker. Because what they do is and this is what they do. They will, let's say, you have a field of Republicans, they will think this guy's going to be the easiest to beat and they will back him against his opponent so he wins that nomination. Yeah.

And then, you know, this guy gets on TV and he's a clown and gets walked all over. He sucks, you know, and that's actually what happened with Trump in 2016. Um, is Hillary and them felt that he would be the easiest to beat. So you could read about this how they had Co Bear, they had all these news channels, Saturday Night Live. This is this is hilarious. I was showing this to my daughter the other day. You could try to look up that episode of Saturday Night Live and you cannot find it scrubbed. But if you keep looking, you'll find it. Yeah. And if you see the skits on that episode, you will just be like, "Am I watching the Twilight Zone?" Yeah. Like people that will go on TV every day and just bag on them and hate him were kissing his butt. Yeah. You watch the Co Bear episode he was on kissing his butt.

You're talking before he even announced his No, no, no. After because they wanted him to be the Republican candidate cuz they thought he'd be the easiest to beat. Correct. Y and it's called the Pied Piper strategy and you can read about this and they all went all in on making sure he would win that nomination because they figured it was a landslide they'd crush them. Yeah. And it didn't work out. What you wish for. Yeah. But that's what they do. And so a lot of times, like you're saying, you see these newscasters, let's say on uh the Today Show, and they're all whatever lying through their teeth about whatever subject, and you're like, "Well, I'm going to turn the Fox News." You go to Fox News, they're lying through their teeth, too. But they're they they they're all run by the same game.

Well, and they know that they're playing, you know, they got you on coming and going. The funniest thing is that like 10 years ago, we can all agree that the uni party was real and it was an illusion of a choice and it's picking the lesser of two evils is all we get as a choice. Like, can't we get a reasonable candidate? That makes sense. Never again. And so, we all knew that. Yeah. And then now you fast forward to today and you're just like, well, I think you had a lot more of a civil, you know, world that we were in back then. And I think the start of the Trump era is where you really saw that it escalated well to like fake wrestling levels, you know. Yeah. Because obviously to say that things that you're not supposed to say out loud riles a lot of the industry up because that was always their trade secrets.

And if you're calling it out, you piss off a lot of people, you know. But I I think like you know the locker up chance and all that, you didn't see that when I used other people running. They might have not liked each other on TV, but in reality, they're all getting along. But you didn't have a candidate chanting lock her up about their opponent. Yeah. And get an audience involved like fake wrestling stuff. You know what I mean? And then no one got locked up. Of course, there may have been a little more dign, you know, a little bit more dignified. Dignified, but that's all gone now. But it sure wasn't that way behind the scenes. Of course, you know. Well, and I actually I tattooed quite a few people that were behind the scenes. And all those people get along. Yeah.

all those people are friends, you know, and a lot of other stuff is that scrubbed is after Hillary lost, the Bushes actually bailed her out. Um, and there was articles at the time about this, but you Google it now financially, you mean from the from the campaign? Yeah. And, um, I remember there's photos of them all hanging out and the Bush family standing with Clinton family, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's all gone now. You can't find it. Yeah. Um, that's a funny thing, too. you know, when things get scrubbed, um, people don't realize that that happens, that if they don't want you to find something, you're not going to find it. Yeah. It's once again, it's almost like the illusion of a choice in a in voting is the illusion that you're getting all the information when you search Google. Yeah. And so, or any search engine.

So, they could try a few of the other engines and maybe other stuff comes up. I do that all the time. I'll try a few different ones just for fun or whatnot. Mhm. Um but yes, the the illusion that you're getting all the facts is is you're not, you know, and and and that's something that people I think part that's partially just like people just need to be aware because even the way that algorithm works and and the things that pisses you off are kind of the things that it's going to show you because that's what you interact with. So, it's not necessarily evil that these algorithms are trying to feed you the opposite view of to try to sway your opinions, but when you interact and with those posts every time, you're telling that's the the algorithm that that's what you want to see. So, that's the stuff that shows up. Yeah.

But, but some of them are better than others. I think that there has to be like a bill of rights. Let's say if you're going to offer a search engine, it should not be able to be steering your thoughts to make you think certain ways or not see a full picture. And that needs to happen at some point or, you know, is it doing that or is it giving you what you want? No, it's stirring. It's definitely, you know, it's definitely whitelisting things. You'll never be able to see them if you search. Um, it's not giving you an honest response. Well, Facebook's probably the worst at that, I think. Well, the worst you know of that you don't know what you don't know. That's true. And the levels of manipulation with everything. If you're seeing it, it's being manipulated right now. That's it.

I mean, on one of my on one of my rant episodes, I was almost just going to go through my feed on on Facebook and just put it up on the screen and like let here look what I see when I go through here. So, an interesting example is the shooter. This happened in Minneapolis. I saw my friends on the left saying the exact same things about the shooter and I saw my friends on the right saying the exact same things and they were both totally different. Yeah. And obviously the algorithms are showing these different people different things about the same exact thing, right? You know, which is insane. It's insane that it can't just be like everyone knows the exact same stuff. just give me the facts and then we can have a conversation on what we think about this or whatnot. Yeah.

But literally, I mean, I was like seeing this happening and I'm like, this is crazy. You know, these people are saying he was a white supremist uh you know, this is the white um I forget the terms, you know, uh vigilante American that we need guns taken away from. And then the the ones on the right are saying, "Look, this is a trans person that was on SSRI. They're all trans people that are killing all these people. Yeah. You know the if you they both made like a police sketch of the person they think killed those kids, it would be two different people. Oh, for for sure. And how how is that happening? How how is a mass a population of people being given two different totally different explanations of what happened of an event that literally is all documented.

You know, I I I I'm pretty careful with my words, you know, like I I know words are forever and I definitely don't want to purposely say things hateful or just to piss people, you know, or things like that because it is forever, you know, and and a lot of times it's not necessary, but you can see the way they manipulate words and headlines and stuff. There's one thing, of course, newspapers always did that, right? So, even back in the 30s, you got the Sun Times or the New York Times and you're trying to sell newspapers on the corner. You want a headline that's going to catch somebody's attention and it's going to make them pay the quarter for the paper or whatever the case may be. Were they always accurate headlines? Not necessarily. So, is it any different because of clickbait and everybody's just looking for clicks?

So, like that's one of the things I've been doing is like like now that's some clickbait garbage and I'll put my little icon uh my little emoji of the garbage can and just say, you know, #clickbait # I will not click, you know, because I I just don't want to play that game. But when you see some of these headlines, it was almost like the 42 uh security experts that said that signed a letter that said that this is this looks like Trump. So So you see how people can't even get those words right because they're not quoting it. And you know that people were pressured into signing that because the letter only said that it looks like this is something Russia would do as a disinformation campaign. Correct. It never said it is. Correct. And a lot of people missed that point. 41 people said this is a Russian. No, they didn't. Yeah.

They just said this is the kind of thing. Again, you know, here's the lack of media where they just went right with it and fed into that even though there's irrefutable facts where the FBI had that thing for a year, I think, before then, right? And knew exactly what they had. Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean it's it's again these these news sources are choosing to play ball and choosing to push, you know, uh fake stories, whatever. It's it's that's where we're in now. Well, in the old days, it worked just like some of the Well, it still is. Some of the it works to a certain extent. I think there's a few people I think What do you What percent of people do you think are critical thinkers that can see through it? 20, correct? Maybe. And do they need us? No, they got 80%. They don't need us. So, they don't care. We're the ones that might vote.

Maybe, but again, you know, they know they know. Going back to that quote I said at the beginning of the uh the interview here is that they know they know what percentage of people if you watch that um century of the self they actually have ways of telling they had like five types of personalities and they know which one you fit into. Oh for sure profiling the whole world world just about of who you are and which one you fit into and how to target you and that was then. Yeah. So now it's probably 30% and how many black ops with CIA, you know, operations and and so so that's where you almost sound like you're getting into the everything's a conspiracy. And I did have a friend that said, you know, you you you don't have to question everything.

And I'm like, you kind of do, you know, and and it's like until I find a source that hasn't lied to me enough, seems to be showing the receipts, seems to be reporting the facts. Then I can trust them a little bit more, but I'm still never going to go with one store, one source. I'm trying to find and I mean most people tend to find the source that validates their opinion and then that's I did my homework. I got a source, you know, and but to assume that the New York Time that's the New York Times I had a friend tell me that that's the New York Times. Yeah, I could demonstrate a Sunday to show you they're lying. You know, I can show right and so they just choose not to see that. Yeah.

like, "I'm sorry, but that's just not oh well, you know, oh well, you can't always get everything right or maybe they were misled." Well, that's the journalist's job is to fact check and to pull another source or whatever the case may be and not just run with it. So, used to be who's a journalist, who's not a journalist, am I a journalist because I have a podcast, you know, do I have freedom of the press? you know, so those are all these weird questions just like the AI, you know, uh, give giving credit to where credit is due in in certain things. It's the same kind of scenario, but that's where the experts are saying. So I think basically, you know, where we're left at then is just, you know, being I was talking to someone about, you know, raising kids, you know, another time, I think it was a couple days ago and stuff.

And um, you know, I was telling them that's the piece of the puzzle that is most important is what happens in the home. You know what I mean? You have no control what happens to your kid at school. You have no control unless you choose what school to go to, but even then, you're limited. uh no control what they're being told by their friends, whatever. But you do have control of what you want to do at home. Meaning teaching them to think for themselves, teaching them to not be that 80% and hoping that they get that, you know, and seeing where they go with it. Yeah. you know, but it's it's hard when you have peer pressure, you know, like I can't teach my kids certain things because I don't want them to stand out and be, you know, ostracized by their teachers and stuff.

Well, that's where I was going to go when you when you're teaching the truth. But the truth is you probably should just keep your mouth shut in class to get to just so you can get your degree is not that you know that's where we need to try to have some sort of voice of reason to where that's where I used to I mean part of the Flipside Frolic premise and and part of like what a debate class used to be is you were assigned the position and the topic. You didn't just get to argue with what you feel. And then and then Renee Deartz and some of the other, you know, does do you really believe that you have a God-given right to an opinion? You really don't. And an uneducated opinion. The answer that should be coming out of people's mouths more often is I don't have enough information on this subject to have an opinion right now.

Just because you read four headlines from from ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, wherever, doesn't give you a right to an opinion. I mean, you need to do a little bit of homework before you can draw an educated opinion. You know, you can have a first impression, but that shouldn't be spewed as though it was of some sort of opinion. And and well, I think, you know, everyone has you're going to have an opinion regardless whether you have a right to have it or not. You're going to have one. Yeah. Now, being that you're human, you may be wrong, that's fine. And I think that as long as people understand, again, circling back to what I said earlier, how, you know, you can't just go through the world with these pre-established ideas to base your whole life on, you got to kind of keep your, you know, self open to new information. Things change.

You might have believed this existed at one point. I mean, at one point, uh, you know, look at the way women were looked at or, uh, minorities, let's say, in this country, you know, and how that's evolved over the years. Yeah. Um, and if you talk to somebody from that era, oh my god, they'd be steadfast on that, you know, they're not the people that walk the earth today. No. Um, and so just based on those examples, there's a lot of stuff that is more fluid than people think.

And they they think they have to have these rigid you know um places for people and things in their world like you are this you are that you are this and that's how they stay sane is they have this rigidity that lets them exist in this world where you know if you are more of a sunzoo you know like the read in the wind as he says in the art of war you know what I mean um you will be a better person for it in my opinion you But some people need to have that. They need to have that uh rock solid belief in things to stay sane. Well, to have a belief structure and moral a moral compass whether it comes from a church or comes from spirituality or comes from just somewhere inside you, you know what the right thing is.

And if you can tap into that and self-evaluate enough to know that you're not purposely trying to wrong others, but you know what's right and wrong in one part of the world may not work in another. So that's fluid, too. Yeah. And and your opinions can be as well. It doesn't make you a flip-flopper unless you're a politician that just looks at the polls and then decides what their opinions are before they don't even look at the polls. Somebody else does and tells them what to say. Yeah. Yeah. or so, so that's where you know if I I I'm confident that just in the in 10 episodes on this podcast that I I listened to somebody's argument and said, "Hey, wow, I never really thought about that way." And I may have changed my opinion right here live on, you know, on the air, so to speak.

And that's perfectly fine too, you know, and but to to that's the one thing about, you know, the left versus the right on certain things where if I don't if I don't agree with you on something, I try I can try to understand your perspective, but you're perfectly fine as an adult to believe whatever you want or to act however you want or to love whoever you want or to change your body however you want, whether it's piercings or tattoos or some surgeries or whatever the case may be as an adult. So, when we start talking about the kids, that's where most people are kind of like that's where it gets into a lot of gray areas on what should and shouldn't happen in a lot of ways.

But but to go for somebody to disagree with my opinion on that and then want to destroy me as a result of me having that opinion because I'm like the evil person that they need to stop and they're going to call your employer and try to get you fired or we're going to get signs and pick at your store because you said something on a podcast or you know that's craziness. Well, that says more about them than you. And that's what I teach my kids is, you know, hurt kids hurt kids. Meaning that if some kids being mean to you that you don't know, doesn't know you, but they're being crazy and mean to you, that says more about them than you. You didn't do anything wrong. Most of the time, the bully just needs a friend, right? Or, you know, I don't even know what they need. Yeah. But I'm not the one to do that.

I'm not their psychotherapist or their whatever. You know what I mean? But they need one, but I'm not it. And and the same goes for, you know, people that feel this need to cancel people. Yeah. Um I think, you know, a lot of people want to say like these crazy liberals are up in arms about this and that or these crazy whatevers. And you know what? You know what I see? I see a good-hearted person and um I see somebody who genuinely cares about the issue. Let's say these people downtown pro protesting the war in Ukraine or you know what's happening in Israel or Trump or whatever they want to protest. I think these are genuinely good-hearted people and they may not have the same beliefs as me. They may not see things the same way as me, but they're doing it 99% of them are doing it out of being a good-hearted person.

You're gonna have that person who's going to be chaos and wants just a reason to go out there and break. Yeah. The anarchists and the troublemakers and the extremists on the left, the extremist. I'm not talking about them, right? We're talking most of the people that are good-hearted people and don't want to see what they consider to be a bad thing happening and I applaud them. The pro the problem though is that the powers that be understand the power of propaganda 100%. And so whether those people are being propagandized and being there for the wrong reason, that's not what I'm speaking to. Yeah. I'm speaking to the reason they're there in the first place. And that's because they care about this issue and they really do genuinely care.

Anybody that takes an action to try to change something they disagree on is usually a person that's doing something for the right reasons or willing to take some action and and be instead of just sit around. It's almost like as a as a union member, you know, um I could not be the guy that's sitting around complaining about the job and then not show up to the meeting. Yeah. You know, so it's like or hey, how about this? Don't work there. You know what I mean? Obviously, that's what I would teach my there's a free market, my friends. Yeah. Just don't go there. Don't be there. Don't come here and sit around complaining and and if you're not going to be a part of the solution, then you're a part of the problem. So, but that's another thing that people lack is the ability to act. You know what I mean?

If you don't like the way something is, do something about it, right? Change it. Speak up. Be willing to have a conversation and be willing to try to stay focused on solutions. So, so it's almost comical cuz even 15, 20 years ago, the rule was like no religion and no politics at the dinner table for Thanksgiving or whatever. Yeah. Right. That never happened at my house. Like people try to do that, but it's like what are you actually saying? You're saying that you you like censorship then? Like we can't I can't have Well, I think they want but they just want to have a peaceful meal. They're trying to That's exactly right. There's a place for things, let's say. and they're saying that that's not the place.

So, it's like my perspective was always like I want to talk to my friends and family about some of these issues because how your own I want to check myself. I want to I want to see where you're coming from. I want to understand how my and and then as a group, as a family, as a community, if we vote as a cohesive, you know, group, we have more power instead of just being an individual, you know, and and the problem is is that it usually stands it it always deres into those perfect purposely driven topics that are designed to deny or divide, you know, instead of if we can just stay focused on some solutions and some ideas that and what what can we do to fix this? Yeah. Then usually the conversation stays on a little bit more sane plane. But sometimes if it is TDS syndrome or whatever it is that it's like, you brought it up again.

I'm not even talking about that guy. Why do you keep bringing it up if you hate him so much? I'm trying to stay focused on a solution. And so sometimes that they fall into that. Yeah, but you know, the people on both sides of the war usually think they're fighting for the right reasons in some ways, unless it's just a mercenary army that's, you know, forced consignments or which is kind of happening on both sides. You're going back to the 80% now. You're going to the people that uh let the thoughts be given to them. Yeah.

that don't have any kind of um personal skin in the game or well they they don't analyze they don't they just go with the tribe the tribe says this let's do it I'm on board you know and that's that personality type that's that type of person well and and in in in their defense in a in a sense who has time to research every little thing be you know and if I can't trust this media that I'm supposed to be able to trust and I'm working two jobs just trying to feed my kids and you know people aren't they don't have time to just sit around and host a dinner and talk to people for three hours or whatever the case but you know then it comes down to being honest is saying I don't have time to do this you know what I mean this is what I was told this is what I believe and that's where I'm at cuz I work two jobs I have time to do that that's the honest well and then if if it's authentic yeah yeah that's the honest like stance to be on but you know it's hard to admit that and say I'm an automaton and I don't think for itself.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And they're not going to say that, but you know that just vote straight Democrat is, you know, that's how I was always told. Totally. But you know that and you know that's why they are the way they are. So again, you know, do you need to push that issue because you know that's who you're dealing with is not going to help anything. You know, by making someone feel cornered and, you know, trying to belittle them by saying that listen, you you do this, you don't have time to do all that. And I know that, you know, that's not going to make anything better. No. So no one's no conversations like that have to happen. You're choosing to make them happen. And if you if it's inappropriate to choose, you know, for the sake of trying to stay a relative or a friend with somebody, then just don't pursue it. Let it be. Yeah.

You don't have to. It's not important. Well, and it's also not going to change it, right? So, you're going to find people in your life that are uh more open and have time to do these things. And those are the people to have those conversations with. And the people that don't that just are just, you know, trying to be good people and trying to get by, let them be. Let them have it. That's that's the cost. That's part of freedom, too. And but, you know, with um again, I keep saying with my kids, and it's true. I keep telling them, you know, it's free to try, you know, like if if you don't like the outcome of something, you want to change it, [censored] do it. Why not? Yeah.

What's the worst thing that can happen if you're part if you um Well, that's one of the little taglines from some other stuff, but it's like I'm I'm responsible for the effort, not the result. Mhm. So, if I feel that I've tried and I did my best or whatever and and it is what it is, then maybe I swayed a few people, maybe. So sometimes on those pokey comments or if you're if you're trolling a little bit and and and you just kind of throw that other question in there or maybe provide a fact that maybe they haven't seen, you think that you're not going to change that person's mind and that's probably true, but there might be a hundred people that read that comment that might be on the fence, too. So that's the weird thing about social media that sometimes when I'm commenting on somebody's post, it might not even be for that person.

No, I've definitely um been that person for quite a few people and I've definitely opened some people's eyes to things they didn't even know were there. Yes. Um and people have done that for me too, you know. But you have to be open to that. You have to be able to like be receptive and you have to have no heroes because the people you hold the highest you may find are not great people. Yeah. So, no, it's very possible. You got you got to be willing to to take swallow that pill, you know.

you got to be willing to say like what that guy oh man no you know but that's where you're the authenticity and the credibility is going to be stronger because somebody's like he was humble enough to say yeah I backed that horse and it probably it wasn't obviously it wasn't the best thing or an example of this is um in the pool world there's a player from America who is the top the number one dog in America this guy Shane Vamboni and people regard him as being like the savior of America because in the world field of players he stands out you know there's no one even in America close to him and he was being a 15-year-old and uh it all came out when he was 16 and people don't like to talk about it and if there will be a pool forum or a chat group whatever on Facebook and you post about that your post is gone and so making this choice to keep the blinders on, you know, cuz this guy, if this guy was a low-level player, banish, you'd never see him again.

He'd be gone. But because he's the number one player, the blinders are on. And it's crazy. It's crazy to see people just like really like you'd be the first person to scream about R. Kelly or Michael Jackson, any of these people, but here it is in your living room and you're going to shut the [censored] up and because you hold because this is our like our savior. This is our best American player out there, you know, you're going to accept the lesser of two evils again, you know, like, oh, I'm willing to not look at that little thing because the big which is a big thing if it's somebody else, but because it's him now it's a little thing. It's like reasonable loss in a war.

It's almost oh there's you know that we justify a certain amount of deaths for the cause and again that that's kind of the same kind of thing but you know but even amongst pros I have never seen a pro is the one that called him out a fellow pro and made a Facebook post about which I have and I know people that were in those circles that witnessed all this happening firsthand and yet this guy is still you know surrounded by pros no one's no one's And that was at what age? He was It was 15 and he was like 40 or He was like mid-30s. Okay. But but I've never seen any pro like speak out about it. I've never seen any pro, whether they have kids that are 15 or not, like refuse a deal with them. He's always he's heralded as the number one player. Yeah. So even in those levels, you know what I mean? I see this and it drives me crazy.

It's like you can give people like here it is. It's undeniable. No one's denying it. And yet, you know, so you can take that in every other whether it's politics, movie stars, whatever. You can take it to any level. Yeah. And they know if they say something, they're going to be out of the click, right? And so, well, whether they will, no one's brave enough to be the one, right, to start. You know, one guy was the guy that posted it and he got, you know what I mean, persona non groud after that.

It's like that that one Facebook video with the guy, you know, just giving hugs or dancing or whatever where it's like it's the first one that really takes the courage to get out there and d start dancing and then everybody's looking at him like, "Look at that silly fool." And then one or two more people get in and then everybody starts going in and everybody has fun, you know? So, it's like the bravery of the the people that stand out of the herd is that rarity. Yeah. I'll always I'll always throw that snowball. I'll always do it. There's no heroes, dude. I I'm fine with that. I will always, you know, if I find out this about this person, whatever. I'm I'll [censored] them. I mean, hope hopefully you do your homework so you're not in a slandering situation where you know cuz obviously like in politics that's the game plan.

Like I'm running against you. I got a buddy somewhere at some three-letter agency and I can say, "Hey, start an investigation on this guy of this." And then I'm not lying when the media says he's under an indictment because of this. Well, being under indictment, being guilty are two different things. I think I think that, you know, negative campaign ads, I choose I I I kind of told myself if I ever see a negative campaign ad about the the the opposite person in the party, I'm not voting for that person. Well, that's great for Carl, but I'm not I'm not the 90% that's going to make a difference. But you got to do some Googling, too, because a lot of that stuff would be taking like they said this, but then you look at it in context and it has a totally different totally different.

And that's, you know, it's propaganda because it's purpose purposeful misleading based on what you consider the facts or because you put a dot dot dot in there and and and chopped out the middle of the sentence or whatever the case may be. And most people are going to fall for that and it's not great, you know. So maybe you could maybe you know that but a lot of them fall for it willingly like they hate this person because they've been taught to hate that person and they want to believe it right and and you can show them the entire quote you can show them everything and they still don't like that they'll say and they'll literally say that's fine but I still don't like that person. Yeah. Okay. You know what I mean? I was told it's not fine. I was trying to show evidence one and I was I was directly told [censored] you and your facts. Yeah.

Exactly. Okay. Yeah, but at no point's over. At no point will they say like, you know, that's [censored] up. I can't believe they would manipulate people like that. Never. Never. They'll always say, "Well, I still hate that person." Well, like, you're not mad that you were just manipulated, that these people lied to you. Yeah. That they purposely lied to you. And if I'm brainwashed, I'm willing to I'm trying to listen to the perspective and maybe I can agree with you if it makes sense. But then a lot of times the receipts aren't there. It's just accusations and name calling and it's like that's not going to sway my opinion.

like do you have anything worth sharing that might so so like if if I can search myself and say if I can't find anything positive about this other person then I'm probably under the influence of some sort of propaganda right so is there anything positive that you could say and when they can't you might have to check yourself there because there there there can't be all bad you know and and and especially in this political realm where we all know politics is dirty We We don't have to be conspiracy theorists to think that there's not people out there that are paying people to try to get you in a gotcha statement or something.

You don't think that the DNC or the RNC will slip somebody into that locker room at the country club and start throwing around some sling terms enough to where if you think you're the mirror the mirroring neurons start clicking in and you just want to be a part of the herd. So then all of a sudden you say one of those slanderous things because there's three other people doing it. Now we got you. Mhm. And they're going to give you $30,000 cash if you could get them somebody saying the n-word or whatever the case may be just to destroy this person cuz that's the competition. And it's just don't hate the player, hate the game kind of mentality that it's, you know, all's fair and love and war or that's just politics or whatever.

And it sucks because you know that's but the person shouldn't have said that word or you know all these different things. But I think it all circles back to put your phone down, put down turn off your TV and leave your house. Like when um 2020 was happening, all the crazy chaos, all the crazy racial stuff, I'd take my kids to that park and there all us dads would be or all us moms of all different backgrounds and all of our kids would be playing. We're all cool. Yep. You sit at home, watch TV, you'd think everyone was out to kill each other. You go to the park, not the case, right? You know, or I go to the pool hall, play my tournament, none of it comes up. We're all there to play pool. We're all having a great time. Yeah. Yeah. All of us are getting away from our wives. We're awesome, but you know, a little break. Yeah.

And we're all there and we're all doing our thing. You know, you go to concert, you know, you do whatever. And I just think that that's um more than ever what people need in this world is a break from that [censored] Well, in some ways it's a dist the like sports and all these different things are a distraction from the real world. But there's if you're sitting there watching, but if you're participating and you're getting out of that stuff and getting out amongst strangers in the real world, that's a great thing. And then also, and that's what we need more of. Like one thing, Rogan, he just had uh Fedor on as well. So that was an interesting conversation for if somebody was into pool, listen to that. But you should see the comments because a lot of people are not. I was I was reading the comments like hilarious. Yeah.

And and they're funny. Um but the one thing that like he points out even with archery or pool or some of those other things that he's into um that if if you're focusing so hard on exactly what what you're doing, you're not thinking about anything else. So that is in a sense a meditative state that clears your head of all that other garbage that's floating around all day. If you don't have a time or a place or a a outlet an outlet to just get away from that then you're snowballs and and and it does drive you crazy you know and but unfortunately like I said a large segment of society has found themselves where that um they don't have anybody they have no one to connect to. Yeah. And they're connection they're relying on you know they they know what they're doing with these things. They know how to make things addictive.

They know how to make, you know, you hooked on, you know, what they want you to be looking at and doing on that stuff. Yeah. The science is spending. My kids, they know as soon as I get home, I'm yelling, "Put that [censored] away. I just get on it, Dad. Nope. Put it away." You know, let's work on this.

such a balance cuz obviously you know even if you try to set limits on screen times and then certain things cuz it's like you know there's certain principles that like okay you try to have a a a set bedtime or whatever and then it's like I'll open the door and they're reading a paper book that's great keep it up nope I'm not here have a good you know take all the time you need and and and so and they know that so hopefully they're not you know manipulating me and switching or whatever but you got to watch for that too of But like, no, if you're sitting there reading a graphic novel or anything, I don't care. You're You know what my brother did? He um changed the Wi-Fi password without telling them. So then they couldn't get on the internet.

They're like, "Well, that's where we could get into like, you know, helicopter parenting and Abigail Shrier and and some of these other other parenting ideas and different things that, you know, the old days of just get on your bikes and get out of this house and I don't want to see you for 3 hours." Yeah. you know, there there's some positive of just exploring and going around and just being outside or whatever the case may be too, you know, where where everything doesn't have to necessarily be helicoptered to the point that, you know, but they have these family apps and, you know, Family Link is a pretty good one with my I think it's with Google. Yeah.

That I can just shut their phone off and at certain times and then, you know, 10 seconds later they're calling, "Hey, can I have 50 more minutes?" You know, so it Sometimes you got to say no. You know, it's the power of no time. Yeah. Even if it's something stupid that don't matter. It's like you got to just say no because it can't always be yes. Of course. Correct. Um and and and those are some of the things that then they appreciate the yes more more so or whatever. What are you working on? you know, and and and that's where all these hobbies and all these different things and all these trying to find those passions. Like my son's like kind of looking into electrical engineering or engineering or structural engineering or material engineering and and it was funny cuz I I had this story we I just went to another club. Mhm.

Uh last week was is the shout out to the Chicago FM Club. there are ham radio club in the area and uh again great group of guys on a on an art or on a hobby that's you know so old a lot of elderly people more so so trying to get some of the youth into that hobby because it's interesting that innovation usually comes from hobbyists you know it doesn't come from the corporations and the scientific research studies and all these a lot of times people just assume that that's where things come from.

But when you're when you're enjoying a hobby of radio broadcasting or or transmitting from your basement and you're playing around with different antennas, the cell phone antenna that doesn't have to be pulled out of the Motorola flip phone, the the way that they designed the antenna to be internal and still work well, that was a ham radio hobbyist that came up with that design, you know, and so so people tinkering around in their basements, even if it's with crisper or some of this other craziness. Sometimes those are kind of the the people that are going to kind of innovate and come up with these new ideas and these new designs, I think more so than some of the corporate researchers because they're just doing, you know, they're they're just uh doing focus groups and all this trying to come up with new ideas or whatever.

But so so the ham radio interest the the basic book to get your ham radio license starts pretty basic and says if you want to know how a radio works you have to kind of know how a computer works because it's kind of and then so it starts it starts off by talking about AC and DC current and what each of these electrical components do and what an IC circuit actually is and everything's an onoff switch and and then you get into sending data packets through the wireless internet the the air through these radio waves. It's like it's fascinating, you know, and and I don't necessarily have a full grasp and understanding of exactly how it works.

Definitely people know more than me, but that's the same thing where if you had questions and you go into a club atmosphere like that, you're still going to have that altruistic willingness to help and and help you understand and explain things. And if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room kind of mentality, you know? Like if you're the best pool player in the room, maybe you should find a better room cuz how challenged are you going to be? Are you getting better by by just stomping on a you know, some of the new guys? Probably not. You know, it's a good problem to have have it. Yeah. Um but yeah, those are just some of those basic things. Um but that speaks to everything.

Yeah, you know, you should always be pushing yourself and trying to be surrounded by the best people, you know, and and and that's where even some of the hate sometimes comes from. I think that people if somebody's really good at organizing that team that's like like a lot of the Elon hate like he doesn't actually build those cars, you know, like he doesn't actually build the rockets. He's got teams. But if you have the vision and you had the idea and you had the initial willingness to take the risk and you brought in the best people in the world on your team that were smarter than you to make this happen, it sure as hell wouldn't have happened if you never did it. But I mean, honestly, I don't know. I don't either. I don't know if he created anything. I don't know if he's an actor. I don't know.

It's And a lot of people that are put in front of you, that's they're playing a role. They're not who they profess to be. And with the people that run things, the people that are the real people behind things, they don't want you to know who they are. They stay in the shadows. You got the puppets they want you to see. You know, who the hell look at the Elon thing in the light of who wants to go out when you want to go out and be anonymous? You can't be. You're a huge public figure. you're you're a slave to that now. So, who would want that? So, the people that I think they've talked by actually on Joe Rogan, you know, they talk about that richest people in the world list and how these people in Saudi Arabia are laughing like they're trillionaires. Like, yeah, because they don't have to disclose. Yeah. Yeah. But they you heard that too.

Yeah. So, that's what I mean. I mean, there's people that, you know, in the city that run things. Um, there was a message, a text message from Brandon Johnson got leaked where he was responding to somebody who said something, "I'm waiting to hear back from the elders." Come on. You know what I mean? These people that really run the business. You think Brandon Johnson's come up with anything? He's an idiot or Lightfoot. Yeah. Kamala. You know, these people are all just puppets. Yeah. And you know, you play a role, you got an office, you have a a position on a board paying six figures waiting. You have a what we call ambassadorship. Yeah. The revolving door. The You get some BS. You play your role for four years on the public screen and then you get lifetime of being taken care of, right?

So any of these people you see, most of them are just puppets. Yeah. And that doesn't mean, you know, you have to feel bad for them. They chose that life. I know people that knew Lightfoot when she was a prosecutor that were police and knew her and they say that person that was on TV was not the person they knew. Sure. They worked with this person for years when she was a prosecutor. And then they saw the mayor Lightfoot. It's a totally different person. Yeah. Um it's it's obvious to us. I can imagine. And and the and the interesting thing is is that that's bad enough in itself, but then the PE those are at least elected elected officials and then you have in the most crooked place of the world. Are they elected?

Well, well, you know, but then at the behind this, you have the group like you're talking about that have been in Washington for 50 years and aren't elected positions. Yeah. When they're the heads of these organizations in these different things that you know, and it's just bizarre cuz everybody agreed that the swamp was dirty and then but speaking of all this, this is good. So, um a great documentary is one called um The Money Masters. It's from the '9s and it's um kind of like the history of banking and who really runs the world and in it are a bunch of presidential quotes. So, you know, it would be one thing if one president said this type stuff when you have multiple presidents all saying the same thing. Yeah. So, let's see here. Here's one from James Garfield.

Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce. And when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled one way or another by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have you won't have to be told how periods of inflation, depression originate. This is a president. Mhm. Okay, that's one. Let's see here. That's like uh here's Wilson. How do I get this thing? I [censored] it up. Get out of there. There we go. Here's Woodro Wilson. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled governments in the civilized world. No longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by the vote of majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.

Some of the biggest men in the United States in the field of commerce and manufacturer are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so wasteful. Oh, I'm sorry, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they have better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. It's a president talking in fear of this group of people. uh Theodore Roosevelt. These international bankers in Rockefeller Standard Oil Interests control the majority of newspapers and the col and the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of public office officials who refuse to do the building the bidding of the powerful corrupt clicks which compose the invisible government. So these are presidents. These are not, you know, run-of-the-mill people.

And they're all saying the same thing. you know, the people that really run things. Well, I think that I think that you can have all the good intentions in the world and then it it's almost like as far as like even let's talk local Chicago politics that was, you know, but that's fallen prey to this now. Yeah, it it's all that's at the top. So, obviously it gets worse, but it it goes deeper. You know, it it's permeated local politics everywhere. I have a friend who's a teacher in Idaho and he was telling me about the crazy amount of money that went to school board elections out there. School board officials have more power than anybody else in the school system. They can fire a principal. They can control the um the whatever the school, you know, the the what's being taught, everything. Yeah. Curriculum. Curriculum. Totally.

And so here he is in this smaller town in Idaho and it's school board election time and he's like I have never seen anything like this. He had been a teacher there for 20 years. He's like there is insane money pouring in the the from outside the district from outside the state from outside the country who to control the school board in this town. Yeah. And if anybody speaks up in defiance or anybody, they are crushed, they will go after. He said there's fake Facebook groups being made in their town that are saying things about these teachers and these principles. It isn't true. But they get the parents riled up. They get elected in on lies and now they can hire and fire who they want. So if that's happening in Cordelane, Idaho, you better believe it's happening here. Yeah.

The bots are an obvious problem that most people don't even understand they exist. So they they see all these people commenting and they they get in arguments with these people, you know, and then you click on their account and they got four friends or, you know, it's like, gosh, please don't engage in these people. But when it comes to local politics and who's getting elected in these local races, they're not doing it independently like, "Hey, I'm Joe Blow and I I don't like what's happening in my neighborhood. I'm going to run for alderman. You can't you can't get ahead. You don't have the funding. These people come in, they got the backing of these groups. So, the permeation of this to a local level is unprecedented.

Well, and it was just like the the tactic back in the day was even you don't have to win, you just have to get on the ballot. And if you do the leg work and do the door knocking and get enough signatures to get on the ballot, then they end up buying you off or something or offering you a position at com or something if you withdraw from the election for family reasons. So here here's a good one you can look up. So when Rahm was running for mayor, there was one lady who was running against him who was pulling really well. Uh what the hell was her name? But um she had worked for Clinton. I'll think of her name in a minute. Carol Moseley Braun. She was pulling really well against Rahm. Okay. Well, what happened? 10 black candidates show up on the ballot to split the black vote. Amazing, huh? Now, one other white candidate.

Now, this is where it gets good. In order to run, you have to have a petition with a certain number of signatures, and it has to be um a notorized. It has to be notorized, right? You can look this up. All their petitions came back as forged. The notaries were faked. They were still allowed to run. The city saw that this was the case and still allowed them to run because they were serving a function. And it worked. It split the black vote. Rahm gets in. Flash next election. You've got uh Lightfoot Preckwinkle and there's another lady um Patricia Van Pelt that's going to run, right? She's not approved to run. Well, guess what happened? her petition was seen as being faked her notoriization. Somebody initialed Chicago or didn't write the whole word count.

So in the other election, oh you can still run cuz you're serving a function splitting the black vote. This election you're a threat. You're not allowed to run. How the rules change based like I was saying earlier. You know what I mean? Well and that's the most obvious thing. You've got [censored] sandwich A or B. You got Preckwinkle Life. They're both serving the same master. It doesn't matter who wins, right? Life of one fine. still got done what they wanted to get done. But if this Patricia Van Pelt had won, she was not on board. So obviously, she had to go. And that's what I'm saying is your choices are never you're never gonna have Harold Washington again. You're never going to have a daily again. You're never going to have somebody who is an independent thinker. You're only going to get these people that are part of the system.

Well, that that's the interesting thing, too, that that God forbid you have somebody that runs on the idea of breaking this machine. But that's the thing is they'll back that candidate because they're full of [censored] Yeah. You know what I mean? You're gonna get I mean just look at Trump. You know how many times you hear you know lock her up. I get Hillary's going to jail. He didn't go to jail. You know what I mean? Well that's the interesting thing. In the first term he didn't pursue it even though he might have even though he threatened it because it would set a bad precedent. And then but they all do it though. They all they all, you know, promise the world or say they're the one that's going to change this and then they say, "I wish I could, but X Y and Z, I can't do it." Yeah. Or but that got you in office.

Or when you you sit down once you're elected and people have a conversation with you and uh obviously they're like, "This is the way it works around here, you know, or whatnot." And then who knows, maybe there's threats, maybe there's this, maybe they're showing pictures of your kids going to school. Yeah. you know, who who knows what kind of I mean, and we see all kinds of movies and all this other stuff, but to think that none of that happens, well, then you're just naive, you know. Does it happen with everybody? No. And it's the same thing that are all politicians corrupt? No. But unfortunately, the the 10% make the most noise and control the purse springs. So, that drowns out anybody.

or or like like the the one example of of of like if you're if you're a local uh senator or congressman or whatever and you're pushing for a bill for your constituents and you've been working to get this on the floor for 3 years. You finally got it on the floor and they tack some earmark on about some abortion thing. Now all of a sudden you vote for your bill and then there's a $27 million campaign showing how you're voting for abortion or whatever the case may be. Well, the real version of that is this. There's a great podcast called Congressional Dish. Uh, this woman, all she does is she reads all the bills and tells you what's in them, but she did one episode and and she does get a little slandered sometimes on one side or another. And, you know, I'm not fan of all of her everything she says, but her work is very honest.

And one thing she did was when the DNC and the RNC happened, she interviewed a lot of these people and she spoke and she has an episode where it's two congressional um Democrat congressional members and two Republicans and they all she interviews all of them in one episode, all four, and they all say the same thing. Here's how it works. You want to get that bridge in your district, you want to get federal funding, you vote yes on all this stuff that you don't even read. Yeah. They hand it to you, you sign it. Yeah. And then when you get your thing on the floor, like you said, it gets funded. But if you don't play ball and you don't sign on to all this stuff, you're not getting anything, right? And they all talk about it, right?

You can listen all four of these interviews and you wouldn't even have to know what party they're in because it doesn't matter. That's the way it happens. And then, you know, they can come to you and say, "Well, you voted for this bill and yeah, I did because that's the only way I can get this new park in my neighborhood or this funding for this bridge to get fixed." Right? But but you'll never hear that. So they might not be corrupt in the sense that they're taking payoffs or whatever to do something, but they're in a corrupt system. Well, like Sposato is in my local district here was a grassroots guy that was a fireman that got I know he is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a great guy and and I had people that were like, he's too much of a boy scout.

He's never going to get anything done early on because if you don't play the game, you're not going to get anything done. So, you can't be all good in a sense in in order to get anything done. and and I don't I believe he stuck to his grounds and and kind of made it through that to where he figured out and got enough support from other people and and was able to get some stuff done and is a great voice and I and he took out Daley's limo driver who was Banks you know which was in the New York Times is one of the biggest upsets in election history in a sense that but I'm sure even him if you ask him he'll admit it had to hold his you know had to hold his nose a couple times. vote yes on a couple things that he didn't want to vote yes on. Well, and and just like everything, you're kind of trying to take the lesser of two evils or whatever.

But why do these bills have to be so complicated? Why do they have to be because they don't write them? They're written by, you know, or these Yeah. organizations or you know, all these legislative think tanks or whatever the case may be. Yeah. Well, that's pretty cool. We'll figure it out eventually. We'll fix it one way or another. If not, focus on our pool games and and and tattoos. There you go. You know, tattoos and pool, child rearing, husbanding, tattooing, and playing pool and neighbors, you know, think globally, act locally. That's kind of the game plan, right? That's why I'm here. When's the last time a national law really changed anything to actually benefit your life in some ways? you know, um, sometimes we got to ask that stuff.

But if you stick around locally and at least get a park redone by your neighborhood that your kids can play at, obviously that's helpful. I don't mind paying taxes as long as I see something getting done. But, you know, when I have to pay half to get my my my my sidewalk fixed. Believe me, that's a whole another episode we don't cover today. We'll come back for that. Um, any plugs? You got your website. Yeah. Deluxe Tattoo. Deluxe Tattoo in Chicago. Yeah. and uh been there for 28 years and still going. New talent all the time. Great times. Very happy. We just had a whole system of a down event. Sevenfold tattoo thing happen this last week. That was insane. Nice. So, always new and exciting happening. Cool. Come on in. We'll take care of you. Come on. Music, everything. Uh social medias, anything you want to plug any Instagram.

I'm on Facebook, Twitter. Nice. Get myself in trouble saying stuff every day. God bless. That's what it's there for. We got to We got to fight the bots. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, cover-ups. Love them. Bring me all your challenges. Let's go. All right. Well, we got a few gifts for you. Uh, and then, uh, we'll let you get out of here and we enjoy it. And for sure we'll do it again, my brother. It's great seeing you. We got a challenge going for you. Oh, great. I'll make sure that this is the right one there. If you're seeing their face on the internet, don't believe them. They're full of [censored] That could be the case. Unless it's this guy. He's for real. Well, I try. All right, guys. We'll catch you We'll catch you later and uh catch you on the next next episode. Thanks. Thanks for joining us at Flipside Frolic.

We hope you enjoyed the conversation and maybe learn a little something about other people's perspectives. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and throw us a like on the video. Comment if you have any questions, and we'll see you on the next episode.